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Unread postby BiGG » Mon 23 May 2005, 07:19:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I')t all just went right over ol' BIGG's head, didn't it? :lol:


No MonteQuest, you put your foot in your mouth again and don't like it when somebody shows your assertions to be out in left field! Do you have some more "tree farm" advice those with a clue regarding tree farms can laugh out of the room? :-D


Note to readers: I thought I just posted on ecological succession and the definition of a climax forest??? The only thing I said about tree farms was the following:
Tree farms are a monoculture and are subject to disease and parasites.

Tree farms are by definition a monoculture and all monocultures are subject, by their very nature, to susceptibility to disease, insects, and parasitic invasion. This is basic agricultural science, not alleged expertise! :lol:

Whose foot is in whose mouth?


OMG! That would still be your foot in your mouth MonteQuest, no. that would be you having both feet in you mouth! Now do you see why I laugh at your nonsense all the time! Again, you simply don’t have a clue here and no wonder you are such a doomer, you can’t put together facts outside of your doomer agenda! Wow! Look at you here again!

Lets take a look at MonteQuest’s “monoculture tree farms” and see if everybody else can see his doom & gloom regarding “disease, insects, and parasitic invasion” problem within this decades old multi-billion dollar per year gigantic industry!

Lets start with where I live ….

Half of Michigan is forested = Of this 18.2 million acres, 17.3 million acres support commercial timber growth.

The forest resource is owned predominately by the private sector (65%). The nonindustrial private owner and farmer categories collectively control 57% of the total timberland acres, while forest industry has 8% of the ownership. The remaining 35% is controlled by the public sector (21% state owned; 14% federally owned). Active forest management and protection activities provide a basis for enhanced forest stewardship on each of these ownerships.

Go ahead and read these links and stop pretending you have a clue MonteQuest! I think even you will see most of this state is a “tree farm” and has been since before you were born!

Timber Volume Increases

Michigan Timberland Highlights
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Unread postby Starvid » Mon 23 May 2005, 07:42:54

It is true that forests used for forestry are not in a climax state. It takes hundreds of years for a forest to reach it's climax state and trees are usually chopped down after 50-100 years. Still calling forests "tree farms" gives the wrong impression. It sounds like the trees stand in straight lines without any other organisms living in or around them.

Productive forests still have a large biodiversity and are stable, sustainable ecosystems. And they are very nice relaxing in.

At least in Sweden.
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Unread postby DriveElectric » Mon 23 May 2005, 13:54:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', '
')The answers to what a joke MonteQuest’s assertions regarding tree farms are right here already in my posts on pages 3 & 4. I think you will clearly see he has no idea of what he is talking about because the problems he is claiming don’t exist anywhere but in his mind.


I really don't understand why MQ and others are so against everything. What is wrong with tree farms? First the eco-Nazis don't want anyone culling trees from forests. So corporations choose to own their land and plant their own tree farms to harvest wood. Now the eco-Nazis don't like that either because "Tree farms are a monoculture and are subject to disease and parasites".

That is the problem with extremist environmentalism. They always find a reason to say "NO" to everything, yet they never offer another option.
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Unread postby Russian_Cowboy » Mon 23 May 2005, 14:16:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DriveElectric', 'W')hat is wrong with tree farms? First the eco-Nazis don't want anyone culling trees from forests. So corporations choose to own their land and plant their own tree farms to harvest wood. Now the eco-Nazis don't like that either because "Tree farms are a monoculture and are subject to disease and parasites".
That is the problem with extremist environmentalism. They always find a reason to say "NO" to everything, yet they never offer another option.


Tree farms require phosphoros. Phosphoros deposits are very limited. You will have hard time with phosphoros even if you recycle it. Besides, the photosynthesis used by the trees to accumulate the biomass is an extremely inefficient process. You are going to get more energy per square foot of a forest by an order of magnitude if you simply cut all the trees to hell and set solar panels on the stumps instead of trying to grow trees and convert them to hydrocarbons.
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Unread postby Cyrus » Mon 23 May 2005, 14:23:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou are going to get more energy per square foot of a forest by an order of magnitude if you simply cut all the trees to hell and set solar panels on the stumps instead of trying to grow trees and convert them to hydrocarbons.


Thank you...
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 23 May 2005, 19:43:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DriveElectric', ' ')
I really don't understand why MQ and others are so against everything. What is wrong with tree farms? First the eco-Nazis don't want anyone culling trees from forests. So corporations choose to own their land and plant their own tree farms to harvest wood. Now the eco-Nazis don't like that either because "Tree farms are a monoculture and are subject to disease and parasites".

That is the problem with extremist environmentalism. They always find a reason to say "NO" to everything, yet they never offer another option.


Who said I was against tree farms? Not I. I only said that monocultures are subject to disease, insects, and parasites more so than a polyculture. That is pure fact. Has been for years. Is never refuted or questioned...until BiGG came along. 8)

This is the problem with those who lack a basic understanding of ecology; they think voiced reality is extremist. If you read my threads, you will see I have offered many options.

I only question things that don't stand up to scrutiny. Science is the one who says no.

Now, back to fuel cells, as Tyler admonishes.
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Unread postby BiGG » Mon 23 May 2005, 22:07:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DriveElectric', ' ')
I really don't understand why MQ and others are so against everything. What is wrong with tree farms? First the eco-Nazis don't want anyone culling trees from forests. So corporations choose to own their land and plant their own tree farms to harvest wood. Now the eco-Nazis don't like that either because "Tree farms are a monoculture and are subject to disease and parasites".

That is the problem with extremist environmentalism. They always find a reason to say "NO" to everything, yet they never offer another option.


Who said I was against tree farms? Not I. I only said that monocultures are subject to disease, insects, and parasites more so than a polyculture. That is pure fact. Has been for years. Is never refuted or questioned...until BiGG came along. 8)

This is the problem with those who lack a basic understanding of ecology; they think voiced reality is extremist. If you read my threads, you will see I have offered many options.

I only question things that don't stand up to scrutiny. Science is the one who says no.

Now, back to fuel cells, as Tyler admonishes.


Sorry MonteQuest, the millions & millions acres of tree farms that surround me are not monoculture and have many, many species of trees just like the millions & millions of acres of tree farms around the world. You are simply incorrect claiming tree farms are monoculture and like I also mentioned disease & parasites are such a small part of this issue it isn’t even worth mentioning! Can MonteQuest show where desiese & parasites have affected even one tenth of one percent of all tree farm production in history?

PS Trees are a part of the fuel cell topic and you can read about it here at Fuel Cell Today
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 23 May 2005, 22:29:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', ' ') Can MonteQuest show where desiese & parasites have affected even one tenth of one percent of all tree farm production in history?


All trees are susceptible to a wide variety of insect, disease, and animal pests. Some tree species are particularly susceptible to certain pests. Monoculture species are even more so. Basic agricultural science.

You think less diversity reduces the incedence of disease? 8)
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Unread postby Tyler_JC » Mon 23 May 2005, 22:31:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an MonteQuest show where desiese & parasites have affected even one tenth of one percent of all tree farm production in history?


THREE AMERICAN TRAGEDIES: CHESTNUT BLIGHT, BUTTERNUT CANKER, AND DUTCH ELM DISEASE

"Forest ecosystems are subjected to many biotic and abiotic stresses. Native insects and diseases, droughts, windstorms and wildfire periodically impact forests or specific tree species, leaving dead or weakened trees. The effects of these stresses may be manifested locally or over a large area, yet they do not cause species extinction. In contrast, exotic pests can threaten the continued existence of a species (cf. United States Congress, 1993). Often host species have not evolved genetic resistance to exotic pests, as coevolutionary processes have not occurred."

Tree farms invite exotic pests by locating thousands of trees in a small area that they normally wouldn't grow in. If they grew their naturally, they wouldn't need to be planted.

Secondly, we use pesticides and fertilizers to make up the difference between nature and Man's desire for more. If we have to spray our tree farms with petro chemical products...we aren't solving PO. Plus, it's energy expensive to grow trees. We are better off putting up solar panels of wind farms.

To quote poorly, "If something must be done, we ought to do it in the fewest number of steps possible."
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Unread postby BiGG » Tue 24 May 2005, 08:26:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', ' ') Can MonteQuest show where desiese & parasites have affected even one tenth of one percent of all tree farm production in history?


All trees are susceptible to a wide variety of insect, disease, and animal pests. Some tree species are particularly susceptible to certain pests. Monoculture species are even more so. Basic agricultural science.

You think less diversity reduces the incedence of disease? 8)


Look at what MonteQuest is saying again as intellectual dishonesty raises its ugly face to say the least. No MonteQuest, I never said anything about less diversity, in fact, I clearly stated earlier in this thread ….

BiGG quote from earlier in this thread ……..A “techno-fix” is what you call a hybrid there MonteQuest and millions & millions of acres of successful implementation of several species decade after decade is what you call reality and your pie-in-the-sky doomer assertions regarding trees farms ain’t doin ya any favors here.

Another BiGG quote from earlier in this thread ……..There are many, many varieties of several trees & many, many varieties of very fast growing hybrids including at least 55 varieties of hybrid popular alone that grow about 10’ per year!


So what do we have here MonteQuest, me thinking “less diversity” or you simply missing the “several species” & “many, many varieties of several trees & many, many varieties of very fast growing hybrids including at least 55 varieties of hybrid popular ….” parts! What am I doing there MonteQuest, thinking “less diversity” 55 times with just the poplars mentioned!

Yearly tree production is GROWING MonteQuest! Yield per acre is GROWING MonteQuest! Your doom & gloom and misinformation regarding tree farms is bunk MonteQuest as tree farms are not monoculture by definition and hundreds of varieties of trees including all of the new ones all the time are not “less diversity”. Basic agricultural science there MonteQuest!
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Unread postby BiGG » Tue 24 May 2005, 08:40:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an MonteQuest show where desiese & parasites have affected even one tenth of one percent of all tree farm production in history?


THREE AMERICAN TRAGEDIES: CHESTNUT BLIGHT, BUTTERNUT CANKER, AND DUTCH ELM DISEASE

"Forest ecosystems are subjected to many biotic and abiotic stresses. Native insects and diseases, droughts, windstorms and wildfire periodically impact forests or specific tree species, leaving dead or weakened trees. The effects of these stresses may be manifested locally or over a large area, yet they do not cause species extinction. In contrast, exotic pests can threaten the continued existence of a species (cf. United States Congress, 1993). Often host species have not evolved genetic resistance to exotic pests, as coevolutionary processes have not occurred."

Tree farms invite exotic pests by locating thousands of trees in a small area that they normally wouldn't grow in. If they grew their naturally, they wouldn't need to be planted.

Secondly, we use pesticides and fertilizers to make up the difference between nature and Man's desire for more. If we have to spray our tree farms with petro chemical products...we aren't solving PO. Plus, it's energy expensive to grow trees. We are better off putting up solar panels of wind farms.

To quote poorly, "If something must be done, we ought to do it in the fewest number of steps possible."


A) “Tree Farms” and/or sustainable forestry make up millions & millions of acres right now, have for decades and very little problem exists with insects and diseases just like I have said several times. Trees are a multi-billion dollar per year industry in my state alone and have been decade after decade. Stop the nonstop doom & gloom mode for two seconds and you might be able to see the reality I am stating here. What do you think the hundreds of types of hybrid trees are all about! I suggest reading the link I provided earlier regarding Michigan’s sustainable forestry industry & “tree farms I think you will see production & yield going up considerably.

B) Oil is not required for making pesticides or fertilizers and I wish you would stop claiming it is since others here might not know reality and believe you.

C) It is not “energy expensive” to grow trees and we are not better off putting up solar panels of wind farms considering we need all three, and solar panels oo wind farms don’t make what wood production does.
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Unread postby Russian_Cowboy » Wed 25 May 2005, 18:59:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', 'B')) Oil is not required for making pesticides or fertilizers and I wish you would stop claiming it is since others here might not know reality and believe you.


Oil is not required for making pesticides or fertilizers, but PHOSPHOROS is required. There is no reliable source of phosphoros on Earth except for phosphates that are being depleted quickly and half of them are located in a single country. Similar, but less serious problems exist with potassium and magnesium required to grow trees, as phosphoros will run out before potassium and magnesium will.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', 'C')) It is not “energy expensive” to grow trees and we are not better off putting up solar panels of wind farms considering we need all three, and solar panels oo wind farms don’t make what wood production does.


It is not energy expensive to grow trees, but it is not energy-profitable either. Ok, this may make sense to do tree farming in the boreal forests provided there is good infrastructure in place.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', 'T')rees are a multi-billion dollar per year industry in my state alone.


To make gasoline or for timber?
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Unread postby 0mar » Wed 25 May 2005, 22:52:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', '
')
B) Oil is not required for making pesticides or fertilizers and I wish you would stop claiming it is since others here might not know reality and believe you.


It's the damned cheapest way ever in the history of mankind. When the price of fertilizer goes up so does everything derived from the plants. What good is tons of fuel is you can't afford it?
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