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Russian rich renounce civilization

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Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby paimei01 » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 07:33:02

See the video here:
http://www.antena3.ro/externe/in-premie ... 23246.html

Could not find the news in English. The news says there are more than 200 new villages created by Russians that have renounced civilization - because they feel it's going to collapse. It also says "they don't send their kids to school, they are afraid that school will transform them into puppets of the system". But everyone in that village had a higher education, so learning its not a problem. That's exactly what the article and video says, I was surprised to hear that - from mainstream media.

I believe the reporter was very impressed by what he saw there, that's the reason for the "blunt" reporting against civilization. In the end he says:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')It's a free world that contaminates you. This also happened to us, in just a few days of filming


Prisoner exchange :)
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08/pr ... hange.html
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')the French Commissioners took all the Pains possible to carry Home the French, that were Prisoners with the Five Nations, and they had full Liberty from the Indians, few of them could be persuaded to return.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 09:06:03

That is all very interesting. Mind me asking when you will be selling your house/flat and moving into the village?
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 10:47:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'S')ee the video here:
http://www.antena3.ro/externe/in-premie ... 23246.html

Could not find the news in English. The news says there are more than 200 new villages created by Russians that have renounced civilization - because they feel it's going to collapse. It also says "they don't send their kids to school, they are afraid that school will transform them into puppets of the system". But everyone in that village had a higher education, so learning its not a problem. That's exactly what the article and video says, I was surprised to hear that - from mainstream media.


After having already lived through the fall of the USSR, I'd be surprised if Russians were afraid of another collapse. I mean they've already seen all this.. pensions wiped out, inflation, economic upheaval.

Russia is a BRICS nation, a rising power. Sort of in that Australia category.. lots of land and resources, not too many people. Plus they still have their nukes and don't have our constitutional constraints -- Russia could turn fascist on a dime if the need arises. Taking all that into account, their prospects are ok I'd say.
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 13:50:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Taking all that into account, their prospects are ok I'd say.


Other than the fact that the entire country seems to be perpetually depressed and culturally committed to the tradition of slow suicide from alcoholism.
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby eastbay » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 13:59:14

You're absolutely correct! Russia has an outstanding chance of pulling through when the economic disaster eventually hits. Land, decent soil, a tradition of hardship, a tradition of powerful leadership, rich in natural resources, a long history of winning against outside attack ... yup, few nations will do as well as Russia! It's probably where the future for humanity will shine brightest. :)


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'S')ee the video here:
http://www.antena3.ro/externe/in-premie ... 23246.html

Could not find the news in English. The news says there are more than 200 new villages created by Russians that have renounced civilization - because they feel it's going to collapse. It also says "they don't send their kids to school, they are afraid that school will transform them into puppets of the system". But everyone in that village had a higher education, so learning its not a problem. That's exactly what the article and video says, I was surprised to hear that - from mainstream media.


After having already lived through the fall of the USSR, I'd be surprised if Russians were afraid of another collapse. I mean they've already seen all this.. pensions wiped out, inflation, economic upheaval.

Russia is a BRICS nation, a rising power. Sort of in that Australia category.. lots of land and resources, not too many people. Plus they still have their nukes and don't have our constitutional constraints -- Russia could turn fascist on a dime if the need arises. Taking all that into account, their prospects are ok I'd say.
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:07:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Taking all that into account, their prospects are ok I'd say.


Other than the fact that the entire country seems to be perpetually depressed and culturally committed to the tradition of slow suicide from alcoholism.


Yup, the accepted medication of western culture, but 'erb is evil. lsol
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby timmac » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:34:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he news says there are more than 200 new villages created by Russians that have renounced civilization - because they feel it's going to collapse.


Living in a Yurt in that cold harsh climate and taking cold showers outside, no local pubs or entertainment I would say they are already living a collapse lifestyle.
I will stick to my modern western ways and drive my motorhome up and down the California coast till SHTF than take over someones doomstead by good old American force..

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Last edited by timmac on Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:37:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:36:13

Those motorhomes need to be outlawed on highway #1 :badgrin:
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby timmac » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:41:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'T')hose motorhomes need to be outlawed on highway #1 :badgrin:


Is that because you can't afford one.. :lol:
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:47:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Taking all that into account, their prospects are ok I'd say.


Other than the fact that the entire country seems to be perpetually depressed and culturally committed to the tradition of slow suicide from alcoholism.


Mos, you can't just disagree with me on EVERYTHING just for the sake of disagreeing. Here, I'm going to test you:

Peak oil is real.

Now if you come back at me with a cornie argument then I'M gonna need a drink. :lol:

(seriously can we end the feud.. please)
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby radon » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 15:35:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Taking all that into account, their prospects are ok I'd say.


Other than the fact that the entire country seems to be perpetually depressed and culturally committed to the tradition of slow suicide from alcoholism.


Russia is far from the leading position at the table of the per capita alcohol consumption, positioned well below Germany, the UK and a number of other developed countries (however, there are reports by other research groups that are not that flattering to Russia).

Interestingly, Luxembourg holds the top spot. Probably, it has to something to do with the research methodology. It is likely that Luxembourg leads here for the same reason that it leads the world in the number of computers per capita. Many people commute every day from France, Belgium and Germany to get to work in Luxembourg, the center of the offshore fund industry and home for many international fund management firms. Effectively, Luxembourg's population doubles during the working hours, thus doubling the count of computers and after-work drinks. But the official population census counts only domiciled residents.

The bottom of the list is also very interesting. The 4 out of the bottom six are Iran, Somalia, Afghanistan and Libya. It looks like alcohol-avert countries tend to attract the wrath of Uncle Sam. Perhaps it is pretty wise to consume enough alcohol to be safely distanced from the bottom of the table. Saudi Arabia is also among these 6... This should give them a pause for thought... Well, forgive me this bit of clownery.

In all seriousness, for various reasons, the problem of alcoholism in Russia tends to be quite noticeably overstated.
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby timmac » Wed 20 Apr 2011, 18:13:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's a free world that contaminates you. This also happened to us, in just a few days of filming


Well than contaminate away, I perfer to be free rather than some half a brain government [commie] official telling me whats best for me..
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 10:05:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('radon', '
')In all seriousness, for various reasons, the problem of alcoholism in Russia tends to be quite noticeably overstated.


So you don't take this article from 5 days ago seriously?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Russians consume about 18 liters of pure alcohol per person a year, more than twice the internationally recommended limit, a rate that President Dmitri A. Medvedev has called a “natural disaster.” Thanks in part to lifelong heavy drinking, the life expectancy for the average Russian man is now about 60 years, just below that of Haiti.


Methinks you are engaging in simple spin-control.
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 12:07:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('radon', '
')Taking all that into account, their prospects are ok I'd say

[url=http://opendata.socrata.com/Government/Alcohol-Consumption-Per-Country/hj43-2bpj]



Yes, many nations have higher per capita alcohol use than Russia. The Swiss. The French. Even Ireland does. I mean, when was the last time you heard anyone pull out the brass knuckles and bust viciously on the Irish for drinking too much?
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 12:40:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '.')..when was the last time you heard anyone pull out the brass knuckles and bust viciously on the Irish for drinking too much?


Maybe because it doesn't seem to be impacting their health to the same degree. whereas Russia is, as many doomers keep mentioning, going through a population "die off" (which in my mind is a good thing in the long run).
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby efarmer » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 14:12:25

I come from a large Irish family and I am happy to announce it is time for our annual vacation.
So all of next week we are all going to hang out at a new saloon.

There are people with pluck and resolve and willing to live hard and make do.

Americans are among them, but we have a large amount of folks who are soft and
may not be up to it.

I think I would rather see what happens than attempt to call the shots on nations and
folks in advance.

Dang, my pop tarts just jumped up in the toaster, gotta run....

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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby radon » Fri 22 Apr 2011, 17:25:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('radon', '
')In all seriousness, for various reasons, the problem of alcoholism in Russia tends to be quite noticeably overstated.


So you don't take this article from 5 days ago seriously?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Russians consume about 18 liters of pure alcohol per person a year, more than twice the internationally recommended limit, a rate that President Dmitri A. Medvedev has called a “natural disaster.” Thanks in part to lifelong heavy drinking, the life expectancy for the average Russian man is now about 60 years, just below that of Haiti.


Methinks you are engaging in simple spin-control.


I think this is a good and informative article, but certainly not a comprehensive analysis of the issue. The problem of alcoholism in Russia is indeed serious. However, there is a tendency to exaggerate its gravity.

Besides, this problem is probably also serious in other countries with high per capita rates of alcohol consumption. And it contributes to reduction in longevity there.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'O')ther than the fact that the entire country seems to be perpetually depressed and culturally committed to the tradition of slow suicide from alcoholism.
This statement of yours, for example, is certainly a quite noticeable overstatement of the scale of the issue.

Couple observations regarding the article:

It says that Mr. Medveded proclaimed that the alcoholism is a "natural disaster" in Russia (in fact he called it a "national calamity"). Many other rulers in Russia did the same over the course of the past century, as we can read in the article. On the cultural level, to denounce the alcohol abuse and launch some sort of real or imagined campaign against is actually a sign of a well-mannered ruler committed to good governance in Russia. So expect whoever takes the high office in Russia to condemn the evil of alcohol at some point, sparing no catchy word for it.

Have you seen a video of the parliamentary debates in Britain? The way a parliamentary fraction approves the words of their speaker may seem strange for an outsider, but this is apparently an old tradition there. Similarly, we have this alcohol-denouncement tradition in Russia. Besides, it resonates well with the electorate, especially the women.

But in fact Medvedev has done the right things in this area and they bore some fruits - no fundamental change but nevertheless. But this is beyond the scope of ours.

I found the official script of his meeting with the Ministers where he discussed this on his official president's site. Unfortunately, the English version does not have this record but hopefully you can use the google translator to read it if indeed interested.

As I said earlier, there are various reasons that lead to a distorted view of the problem of alcoholism in Russia - now I will try to list them below.

1. Guesstimating. You will see in the script I linked that Medvedev indeed referred to 18 litres of alcohol per capita per annum. Yet, scroll down - Ms. Golikova, the Social Minister, informed that the alcohol consumption spiked in Russia at this level of 18 litres in 1995, but it now declined to 10 litres. She however confirmed that certain "experts" put the present consumption at 18 litres. The 10 litres level is consistent with the that in the table that I linked above earlier in the thread, putting Russia in the modest 20th position in the world ranks.

(EDIT: By the way, Ms. Golikova reported some long-term dynamics of Russian alcohol consumption - you can read that in the script. If true, these long term data totally discredit the myth about the Russian "cultural commitment to the tradition of slow suicide from alcohol", as she actually pointed out herself later during the meeting. According to her, Russian consumption in 1914-1917 was 3.4 liters pa per capita, which was one of the lowest in Europe).

But the point here is that there are a number of varying estimates of alcohol consumption in place. I have reviewed some in the web and those that tend to put Russia in the higher ranks include some sort of subjective guesstimates with regard to "unrecorded volumes" or alike. If you request some sort of the likes of transparency international to come up with a guesstimating methodology, they may produce one that would send a country's per capita alcohol consumption sky-high for you.

I have read quite a few articles on this in relation to Russia over the course of these years, and generally the researches (to their surprise) tended to find out that Russia tails behind a number of the developed countries.

The New York Times article that you linked preferred to cite that high 18 litres number.

2. Extrapolation of the past. Indeed, as Ms. Golikova pointed out, alcohol abuse indeed spiked in the "reformist" 1990s. I do not need statistics or newspaper articles, I observed it first hand. It became very pervasive, entire families got destroyed and people even perished. Along with it, drugs suddenly became a big issue. Drug abuse was virtually non-existent in the Soviet times and then, all of a sudden, it became rampant. People were routinely finding needles that youngster drug abusers dropped by the entrances in their house blocks.

From my personal observations, this is no longer such an overwhelming issue as it was in the 1990s. It was usual to see a drunk person or several of them sleeping on the street every other day at that time. But by now, I do not remember when I saw such a picture the last time.

3. Social visibility. Unlike in other countries, it has not been unacceptable or undesirable to demonstrate openly heavy drinking habits in Russia. So, what people in other countries tend to do privately or even conceal, Russians do openly and feel no problem with it. This has been changing lately. A few years ago it was normal to drink beer while taking train in the Moscow underground, then it gradually became socially undesirable, and later, a while ago, it was explicitly banned by law.

Also, in general, Russians tend to readily report their troubles to outsiders and total strangers, while people in other cultures tend to not disclose them.

4. Physical visibility. Russia is highly urbanised, and in the most important urban areas the alcoholism problem is very visible. To a substantial extent, this is due to the problem of homeless or otherwise marginalized people. These people tend to be alcohol abusers in Russia, and they tend to inhabit very visible areas such as those in the vicinity of open markets or bus/train/underground stations. This makes this problem very, if not disproportionally, visible to everyone, including those who write reports.

There are reasons why the homeless drink so heavily in Russia. The climate is totally ruthless towards them. If you can sit by the basement in London asking for spare change and knowing that you would somehow make it through the winter night with your woolen cover, in Russia a winter night may bring you an irrecoverable damage to your health, if not death. Even those with strong spirits can find themselves seeking to dissolve their grief in increasing doses of alcohol in these circumstances.

5. Substituent issues. The article you linked compares 40 000 annual Russian deaths from alcohol poisoning to 300 in the US. What it fails to mention is that the overwhelming majority of the Russian deaths is not due to the alcohol poisoning per se, but rather due to poisoning by surrogates such as methyl spirits. This is not an alcohol abuse issue, this is a trade and quality compliance issue. Also, many related deaths and injuries relate to situations where drunken people drive or engage in violence. This is not as much an as alcohol abuse problem as it is a problem of loose behavioral norms and ethics in the society.

By the way, the US is hardly a best test case for comparison - the US alcohol consumption seems to be exemplary in its moderation.

6. Stratification visibility. Consumption in various countries tends to focus on certain drinks stratified by their alcohol content: the gossip is that Germans prefer bear and apfel wine, the French - red wines, the Russians - vodka and strong spirits. Also, weaker spirits tend to be consumed continuously but over a prolonged period of time, while stronger spirits are consumed briskly over a short time span. If this is the case, than the Russian-type drinking habits may manifest themselves more remarkably and memorably for an outside observer, again making them highly visible, although their longer term effect would not be very different from other countries' types.

7. Stereotypes. The factors listed above, especially what I called "the social visibility", have led to development of a persistent stereotype. This is kind of self-explanatory.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', ' ')Maybe because it doesn't seem to be impacting their health to the same degree. whereas Russia is, as many doomers keep mentioning, going through a population "die off" (which in my mind is a good thing in the long run).

The fact that the Irish are going to live longer in the future does not necessarily mean that Russians are not going to live longer in the future. In fact, life expectancy in Russia plummeted in 1990s, in the time of the post-Soviet reform. In 1980s, when Gorbachev launched his anti-alcohol campaign, the life expectancy was fairly high, though by far not the highest in the world. Nowadays, the life expectancy has recovered a bit after the 1990s ordeal.

Japan (long term trend, nothing to do with Fukushima), Italy and some other European countries are below replication ratios, and see their populations diminishing, even if at a slower rate. Interestingly, it is the men's life expectancy that dropped significantly in Russia in 1990, the women's remained relatively stable.

Russia is not exactly the most benign place from the point of view of the longevity records. Wars, traumatism, harsh climate - all contribute to risks to human life. In 1990s Russia fought two wars on its own territory and was in this or that way involved in a number of military conflicts elsewhere. Over a long term, the alcohol abuse is by far not the single most important risk contributing to the reduction in life expectancy.

On the other hand, Russia boasts some areas with one of the best longevities in the world, such as the Caucasus mountains, for example.

In conclusion, my point was not that of the substance, but rather that of the form. There is no question that the alcohol problem does exist - the issue is that it is not always presented in a balanced way.

Call it a spin-control if you like.
Methinks that the devil is in detail, as usual.
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 23 Apr 2011, 22:45:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '
')Yes, many nations have higher per capita alcohol use than Russia. The Swiss. The French. Even Ireland does. I mean, when was the last time you heard anyone pull out the brass knuckles and bust viciously on the Irish for drinking too much?


Well, no brass knuckles, but "Family Guy", one of a growing group of adult "societal commentary" cartoons, does take several whacks at them for being alcoholics.

My favorite was when they were about to convert to a society of pure energy beings (shades of Carhole's and Ray Kurzweil's purported singularity), but first, they stopped to celebrate with a drink.

Well, 10 seconds later you had a typical drunken brawl, resulting in the scientific equipment being smashed (and the implication that the result is Ireland today -- dominated by a bunch of barfly pugelists).

While inaccurate, it was pretty funny by Family Guy standards...
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Russian rich renounce civilization

Unread postby radon » Mon 02 May 2011, 18:46:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'A')fter having already lived through the fall of the USSR, I'd be surprised if Russians were afraid of another collapse. I mean they've already seen all this.. pensions wiped out, inflation, economic upheaval.
This is a fair observation. It has been like traveling from one doom to another over the course of the past century or so. As none of these dooms led to apocalypse, by now the people have developed a kind of immunity to ultra-doomerish outlooks. This immunity is helpful as it boosts resilience and rationality in the face of adversity.

Another advantage is that the people will normally listen to you calmly and attentively if you decide to introduce some kind of a doom-like planetary problem to them. They will not dismiss you as crazy if you talk peak oil to them, and will most probably seek further details on that kind of issue from you.

As a negative consequence of all this, Russians often come across as fatalistic and a bit gloomy.

The degree of the public awareness of the issues that we discuss here is in fact quite high in Russia. Back at the university, we had a dedicated subject where we were taught in-depth the implications of resource depletion (though not in terms of peak oil), industrial pollution, nuclear contamination, global warming/climate change etc. A loose translation of the name of the subject was "Environmental sustainability", even though we did not major in the environmental studies. And this was many years ago.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Russia is a BRICS nation, a rising power.
We are more a power on retirement probably. This is, in fact, a very nice position to be in, as long as you have your proper retirement arrangements in place. But we have been through some bumpy years recently. Still reasonably okey to go on for now, we'll see.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ort of in that Australia category.. lots of land and resources, not too many people.

The fossil resource depletion is going to hit Russia hard, sooner or later. For Russia, this will be a harsher experience than for most, for the simple reason that Russia, unlike Australia, is a cold country. Heating is not a luxury, it is an existential necessity. Oil resources, specifically, are not the largest. So, we should rather be prepared.

In addition, unlike in Australia, there are all sorts of righteous fighters all around across Russia's borders, the longest on the Earth. But being on the cross-roads also has its advantages.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')lus they still have their nukes and don't have our constitutional constraints -- Russia could turn fascist on a dime if the need arises.
It looks like there is more to this sentence than just what was written. Literally, the conclusion that one might arrive at from reading it, is that it would be helpful to be able to quickly turn to fascism if need be.

Anyway, the Russian constitution does have constraints preventing Russia from turning fascist:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..Article 19

1. All people shall be equal before the law and court.

2. The State shall guarantee the equality of rights and freedoms of man and citizen, regardless of sex, race, nationality, language, origin, property and official status, place of residence, religion, convictions, membership of public associations, and also of other circumstances. All forms of limitations of human rights on social, racial, national, linguistic or religious grounds shall be banned.

3. Man and woman shall enjoy equal rights and freedoms and have equal possibilities to exercise them....

Mr. Kunstler has speculated on a fascist-type figure taking power in the US a few times in his blog, and I think I have even seen you alluding to such a possibility in one of your recent posts. In any case, I have no idea how it plays out in reality, either in Russia or in the US.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') Taking all that into account, their prospects are ok I'd say. Possible, but in no way granted.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'Y')ou're absolutely correct! Russia has an outstanding chance of pulling through when the economic disaster eventually hits. Land, decent soil, a tradition of hardship, a tradition of powerful leadership, rich in natural resources, a long history of winning against outside attack ... yup, few nations will do as well as Russia! It's probably where the future for humanity will shine brightest. Not impossible, but in no way certain. Quite an optimistic scenario. Our leaders should perhaps think about promoting something like that as a kind of a uniting national idea to rally the country behind it and boost morale.

Anyway, hopefully the things will also be good at the place where you live.
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