[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '
')As long as an EV isn't sold or propagandized to someone as a way to save money, I'm all for them. Using an EV because you like the car, or the way it sounds, its shape, or just the bright-new tech feel, or whatever, is great. Telling Bob that he won't be able to afford to get to work when gas is $6 because he didn't buy an EV is misleading as can be. Anyone that can afford to buy a $30k vehicle won't be significantly influenced by gasoline cost until the $15-$20/gal range; at which point an EV certainly would save money, if electricity isn't also selling for $2/kwh or something. Conversely, anyone that would be in trouble for work commutes at $6/gal couldn't afford the $30k ev either.

Thats really the heart of my objection I think... Anyone that is seriously effected by $6 gas will be looking at the $15k car, not the $30k car. (as far as price goes)

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'S')aying a 100 mile or so range EV won't work is obviously not a true statement.

[AgentR11]

We just fundamentally disagree with how to evaluate cars I suppose. I still have no idea why you'd compare a LEAF and Prius; if you insist on similar price points, then by definition the car with the better "mileage" is going to be less expensive. So I don't really know who you think is disagreeing with that particular piece.

The reason I suggest comparison with the Tercel/Yaris group is that they are similar in size, comfort, and capability, with the difference being strictly a comparison with a cheaper drive train + less efficiency vs the much more expensive drive train + much more efficiency. The end result in that comparison is that it takes very expensive fuel to close the gap in overall cost between the two similar vehicles.

Given that, we are just talking past each other.

[JRP3]

The Yaris is a smaller vehicle than the LEAF with the LEAF being 2 feet longer, which is substantial. If you have never driven a LEAF you can't really comment on the quality and comfort level of the vehicle, most reviews I've seen give it much better than econobox marks. Not surprising since an EV can have luxury vehicle smoothness and sound levels since they don't have a vibrating ICE, which you seem to discount. As for why I would compare a LEAF to a Prius, they have the same wheel base and overall length, and as I've mentioned they quite obviously have a similar target market. You can compare a LEAF to a Yaris, a moped, or a bike, but none of them are valid comparisons. Name any other two vehicles that you would reasonably compare in completely different price ranges, and then explain why you feel that's a valid comparison and why you think they are targeting the same buyer.

[AgentR11]

We are really just talking past each other on this. I've already answered, in a previous post, why I would compare vehicles across a substantial price range.

[Mesuge]

You guys are still missing the basic point and that's the fact HSD from Toyota has been around for more than a decade in several milion copies produced, and it's on the 4th generation (3rd export ver). In comparison Nissan Leaf remains an experimental joke for the near future. You can get great 3rd party PHEV mods for HSD, e.g. <72mph EV or blended mode, in various kWh capacities. But as pointed before with the tsunami aftermath, it's kind of risky to buy anything from Japan in the next few years. The quality will go down, unfocused workers, hastily patched JIT system etc.

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', ' ') I've already answered, in a previous post, why I would compare vehicles across a substantial price range.

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'Y')ou guys are still missing the basic point and that's the fact HSD from Toyota has been around for more than a decade in several milion copies produced, and it's on the 4th generation (3rd export ver). In comparison Nissan Leaf remains an experimental joke for the near future. You can get great 3rd party PHEV mods for HSD, e.g. <72mph EV or blended mode, in various kWh capacities. But as pointed before with the tsunami aftermath, it's kind of risky to buy anything from Japan in the next few years. The quality will go down, unfocused workers, hastily patched JIT system etc.

[Mesuge]

Clearly you don't understand the basics of industrial civilization and it's products evolution at all. There is a very significant difference between a 3rd/4th generation product massproduced in millions in comparison to a new born and apparently various issues plagued 1st gen product which is being manufactured in thousands at the moment. The Leaf is not only slightly diff. segment (which doesn't matter in this debate about slowly maturing products in terms of quality) but it simply doesn't work as hyped/advertised at all.

If you don't know about these simple principles even from your personal consumer experience so far or see the ridiculousness of your claims here it's hard to continue this part of the debate

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'Y')es, you claimed they were similar in size, comfort, and compatibility. I'm not sure what you meant by compatibility ..

[AgentR11]

nb EV comfort, I didn't address. My experience is that EV's are quieter and smoother, but take longer to get cold inside. OTOH, it never gets cold enough here to influence battery performance, so I leave that completely off the table. Basically though, this is why I consider them similar in that category, even if one is better at one part, and the other is better at another.

We do agree on the quieter and smoother part, don't misunderstand.

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'C')learly you don't understand the basics of industrial civilization and it's products evolution at all.

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', ' ')

Scaling can not save us on the economics of batteries. New tech could, but so far nothing has come along to prove that it will.

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'P')anic! Nanotube carbon capacitors don't work! THE EEStor Thread (merged)

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'P')anic! Nanotube carbon capacitors don't work! THE EEStor Thread (merged)

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 't')hen you might want to visit the end of the thread??

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he new material developed by the UT-Austin researchers may change that. Supercapacitors made from it have an energy-storage capacity, or energy density, that is approaching the energy density of lead-acid batteries, while retaining the high power density -- that is, rapid energy release -- that is characteristic of supercapacitors.

[steaveford]

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