[thuja]

@shaved monkey...sounds like you havea geat set up. Congrats. But I know few people younger than 40 or even 50 who have paid off their land and home and have built up a nice off the grid life where they don't need to work much if any. Retired and/or rich people come to mind.

For younger folks thinking of going this route, some serious planning and back up planning is needed...espscially in terms of money.

@mos and others....what the hell is a bugout doomstead for? What are you bugging out from? Grinding poverty? Losing your job? Not being able to pay the bills in town?

Seriously...this whole bugout thing is predicated on some year zero judgement day that will occur in the near future when oil starts running out. Unfortunately life is more complicated than that.

Judgement day tends to happen when the price of food gets to high and you have a hard time keeping up with your mortgage payment. It comes when your boss lays you off. It won't come when canibals are attacking you with sawed off shotguns. But hey if you want a place to go camping...have at it.

[PrestonSturges]

When you get older, you might only do a third the physical labor of a young guy, but where his basal metabolism is 2500 calories and he needs 6000 calories to work hard, you can get in a day of light work on little more than a peanut butter sandwich and probably gain weight.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I')'ve wanted to do that for a few years now. The only catch is the suburban house belongs to my mom and dad and they want my daughter to grow up in this "good school system" rather than the boonies, and the threat of TEOTWAWKI isn't enough to make them budge.

[Ibon]

About heading to the boonies I have some first hand experience to share. It's partially about the boonies and partially about the psychological dynamics of moving or transitioning.

The desire to head to the boonies is born from the place you are now. Which is suburbia or an urban setting. So all this desire to head out to the boonies is in polarity to where you now are. This is obvious but once you finally get to the boonies that polarity drops. So you better have a deep relationship with the boonies beyond just them representing the polarity of where you came from or because you see your current place as unsustainable or full of unconscious peak un aware folks! You need a deeply committed relationship to rural agrarian life or to wilderness as is more my case.

Do not underestimate the isolation and the challenges once you get there and once the routine sets in. It can be daunting. And overwhelming. But leaning into exactly those parts that are daunting and overwhelming is exactly how you start to humble yourself into integrating into a quieter and more centered life. Getting integrated into your local community makes all the difference also.

Give yourself 2-3 years once you get there to fully develop the local knowledge and self reliance and confidence to build out your space. In the beginning you will make a lot of stupid mistakes which will be glaringly obvious only in hindsight.

We couldn't do what we are doing without leaning heavily on the status quo staying resilient; affordable fuel, tourists coming to visit, maintenance of 10km rural 4WD road, getting spare parts for the micro hydro system, etc. etc.

I am guessing that if things really fell apart we would probably have to exit this retreat here. But I didn't choose this place as a doomsday retreat in the first place.

For those that are focusing really on the parameters of surviving a severe crash I would recommend a rural area with still enough population density to receive some priority in servicing and maintaining existing infrastructure. The extreme fringe areas like where we are will get no priority or resources if things really do collapse.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')You need water, food and shelter...and a regular income to make sure you keep those things. That's harder to do in a rural setting. Take away social security checks, federal and state government grants to rural counties...and you will see a more realistic picture of the rural future. That is one of severe unemployment, foreclosurre and poverty. Wait that's already happening rurally.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'L')et me be blunt for your sake. A sailboat “get out of dodge” escape is a totally ignorant tactical plan. I’m certain you’re acquainted with the phrase, “no safe port in a storm”. Who do you think would welcome vagabonds drifting ashore to their screwed up lives? Maybe you’re planning on more fun then flexibility or security?

For what it’s worth, the best security you can buy is to find yourself a small rural community that you can become a part of.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Skinner', 'B')oy, I don't know about that. Mike Ruppert seems to be putting just such a plan into motion, and he is an absolute god in the peak oil world.

Sail out to sea, come back a few months later after the starvation, zombies and nuclear fallout have done their work...presto...utopia for Doomers.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'L')ore, what can I say. Clearly you have spent far more time considering my personal situation than I have and using your super-human powers of observation have peered deeply into my life and capabilities beyond any insight I may have.

While you are at it would you please provide a brief description of exactly how the system will unwind.

When will it start?

When will the dollar collapse?

When will SS and/or welfare checks be halted?

When will the cities riot?

Will it be winter or summer?

Will the government take your gold?

When will Saudia Arabia fall to the rebels?

Any other pertinent info would be appreciated.

[Newfie]

LORE WROTE:
I'm also less interested in how and when it unwinds then to be in a position to be ready for the inevitable unknowns.

Lore, for someone who is aware of the inevitable unknowns you are awful sure about the wisdom of your solution and the folly of mine.

We are all guessing and preparing the best we can given the situation we are in and within our capabilities.

Allow me a wee bit o advice. Tone down your hubris and you will fit into that community tad easier.

Peace bro!

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '[')b]
LORE WROTE:
I'm also less interested in how and when it unwinds then to be in a position to be ready for the inevitable unknowns.

Lore, for someone who is aware of the inevitable unknowns you are awful sure about the wisdom of your solution and the folly of mine.

We are all guessing and preparing the best we can given the situation we are in and within our capabilities.

Allow me a wee bit o advice. Tone down your hubris and you will fit into that community tad easier.

Peace bro!

[vtsnowedin]

Nice debate you guys are having. I wonder if the paradise hideaway islands everyone expects to sail away to will get a bit crowded when twenty boats arrive at each one that "nobody knows about"? And how many western sailors have ever gone more then two weeks without something from a full service marina?
I'm on the rural side of the city country argument as that is where I already am and I know my best chances are in staying right here and making do with what I have. I have shelter in the house I built ( that's built not 'had built') twenty years ago and the water will run down from the spring as long as it snows and rains in Vermont and I can grow and produce food here using only hand labor if necessary and there is plenty of wood for fuel. There are chickens in coop and the garden can expand to five acres if needed. Today I made eight gallons of maple syrup which brings me up to nineteen for the season which still has a couple of weeks to go. A gallon of syrup has 12,800 calories in it and this morning it was just sap running out of a hole in a tree.
Before the oil age there were two thousand people living in this town and today there is only twelve hundred. Without oil life will be much harder here but it will be possible and for many areas and for many people that is, if not certainly negative, at least highly unlikely. You cannot grow enough food on a roof top to feed all the people living under that roof and you can't grow food in the middle of a street and in most urban ares that is the only options you have. If our present food production and distribution system breaks down due to the decline in oil supplies those on the far end of the supply chain (those in the cities) will be the ones to run out of food first and have the least options for finding a alternative supply. If times got really really tough I might have to jack a deer or rustle a neighbors cow but the city dude will have to trap and eat rats.

But face it you city dudes could be in the middle of a farm yard with livestock all around you and crops in the fields ready to be harvested and you would still starve as you don't know how to butcher an animal and bring it to the cook pot or table or how to harvest and process vegetables and grains. You might as well stay in the cities and try to send me something I need enough so I will send you potatoes,cheese and maple syrup in exchange.

[thuja]

@vtsnwedin:

You have it backwards man. Supplies, maintenance, state dolars and services medical care, fire, police, food transport...will naturally flow to the built up areas where wealth and populous are.

That is happening...now. Rural counties have extremely high unemployment rates, services are being dramatically cut. Businesses are shutting down and foreclosures are rampant.

Say it with me folks. Peak Oil will generally be seen as an economic crisis, not a Mad Max crisis. Preparing to live on trapped rabbits and homegrown potatoes won't help you if you can't bring in steady income.

[JessiRhea]

Thuja: I see where you're coming from, but what about those people who already are hunting deer, trapping rabbits, and gardening to survive while out of work? Not everyone has a stable income even now, and some people are already finding ways to survive without it. Losing your income is not the worst thing that can happen. It might sound crazy for someone who's never done it, but it is possible to live in a rural area without a job. People do it. And those who do it are probably in a better position to survive than those who are dependent on a stable income and grocery stores.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '@')vtsnwedin:

You have it backwards man. Supplies, maintenance, state dolars and services medical care, fire, police, food transport...will naturally flow to the built up areas where wealth and populous are.

That is happening...now. Rural counties have extremely high unemployment rates, services are being dramatically cut. Businesses are shutting down and foreclosures are rampant.

Say it with me folks. Peak Oil will generally be seen as an economic crisis, not a Mad Max crisis. Preparing to live on trapped rabbits and homegrown potatoes won't help you if you can't bring in steady income.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JessiRhea', 'I')t might sound crazy for someone who's never done it, but it is possible to live in a rural area without a job. People do it. And those who do it are probably in a better position to survive than those who are dependent on a stable income and grocery stores.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')She's your daughter, not your parents'. If you can manage to commute from somewhere in the boonies (either daily or weekly), let your parents know you're going to do it.

[Asterisk]

Mos,

There is no question in my mind that you are doing the right thing, your family will thank you when everything starts to fall apart.

I wish I could do the same thing. I prepped for y2k like nobody's business, and if it had been TEOTWAWKI, both I and my family would have survived.

But it took a lot out of me, and frankly I'm not in a place where I can easily replicate what I did back then.

That being said, I am keeping an eye on things and this time around I am waiting until I am 100% certain that we are looking doom in the face. (right now I am 90% certain, but that is just not enough for me to build a bunker, so to speak).


Until then, I am living the life of a lemming just like everyone else!

[Crusty]

I actually think the constant arguing city vs country etc is the best thing about this site. Many people are new to the Peak Oil concept and like to read the different arguments.

It's like a Trial, you have the Defense side and the Prosecution side and they argue while the Judge sit and listens and then he makes up a decision on who is right and who is wrong. These forums are like that for people viewing but not registering.

The other day a lady in the community garden heard a mate and I talking about Peak Oil, she enquired about it and I briefly told her we are running out of the Stuff and look to up peakoil.com if she wants to learn about it (in a nice way). By the look on her face I reckon she's looking it up now. It's a very non threatening way to do it. Even though the same subjects are coming up time and time again they are new for those people who have only recently taken the 'Red Pill' and I reckon the gulping of Red Pills is starting to go into overdrive!!!

Last night a mate came around to my place for a few beers (too many actually) and although he has plenty of money prefers to live simply. He is presently doing some handyman work on a Horse property nearby and staying in one of their Cabins. He says he has to get home soon as he's getting soft. He has running water and electricity in the Cabin!!

There is still a lot of Fat that can be Cut before Mad Max Doom!!

[Revi]

I think the thing to do is to slowly prepare for the doom. I consider it my second job to prepare for doom. For the past month I have been making maple syrup. It is a very tradeable commodity now, and will be even better if things get nasty. Even food inflation is part of it. Any stuff I can store away now is stuff that may be useful in the future. The other things I look around for are useful antiques. I have been buying and selling cast iron pans for the past 3 or 4 years, and they are a great thing to have when and if things get nasty. There are a lot of things that we can still do. I would say a doomstead is a good idea, but an even better one is to get a small house and a piece of land that could have a garden and pay for it with cash. Then go visit the place every weekend so that when you have to go there you won't be a stranger. Even that won't be a guarantee that the people there will accept you, but it's a start.

Here's a property that would be worth getting. You could have a garden and live there very inexpensively. It's not far from Augusta where you can catch a bus. I would remove the trailer and build something else, but that's not hard to do. You aren't far from the lake, so you could use it as a summer place in the meantime and get to know the area.

http://www.tcreal.com/search/displayListing/1004074

[Shaved Monkey]

I chose isolated rural
Subtropical climate gives me no need for heating or cooling,less clothes and a longer growing season.
Isolated rural setting gives me a better chance of forming a close knit community.
Access to land to feed ourselves and timber to build and cook with,everyone has a barbie,we also build a few cob pizza ovens or rocket stove ovens for everyone.
If we have no power we go to bed at nightfall and don't store food in fridges or freezers,Coolgardie safes will make a come back http://www.aussiethings.biz/coolgardie_safe.html.
We will need to organise a 3rd world butchery where animals are herded in and slaughtered to order or hunter gather ,fishing and hunting of local wild life.
Or we go to a village system where if we kill an animal the whole town eats together so we don't need to refrigerate and we bond as a community.
You wont have flour for bread but the aboriginals made flour from wattle seed and grass seeds ground between 2 stones.
Plenty of sugar cane and native and introduced bees for sugar.
You can make milk out of Soy or rice or almonds or macadamias.
Grow your own tea and coffee

It could be a big holiday camp lots of fun and no need for money.