[Crusty]

Sorry if I'm giving the impression that it's a Post Peak utopian town here, it's not. The vast majority of people who live here are living the typical consumerist lifestyle. It's just that through the community garden i've met a lot of Peak Oil aware people who are making preps for them-self and the community.

Most of us are very careful who we talk to about 'Peak Oil' and 'Climate Change' as it can create angry responses. We prefer to say things like 'Fuel's not getting any Cheaper', 'Riding the Electric Bike is fun', 'Foods getting more expensive', 'The quality of the Vege's is shit which is why I grow my own' & 'Got to prepare for the next Drought, Flood etc'

Got a mate who loves to come up from the Gold Coast. He lives the typical Goldie lifestyle of good job, good income, big house, 3 cars, big mortgage etc. He carries a fair bit of weight from his sedentary lifestyle. We have two good surf beaches here, the town beach which is typical and easy to get to and a local's beach with about a km walk down a big hill. First time I took him to the local's beach it nearly killed him but we got to ride great waves with only a couple of people out, unheard of on the Goldie. Cut some wood, sat around the campfire that night drinking beer and laughing about the 'Death March' to the beach. Next morning he was keen to do it again, and again, and again. 1st week his board shorts started falling off him and had to buy a smaller pair, 2nd week same thing, 3rd week same thing, he was feeling great, looking good and his surfing improved out of sight. Went home and put all the weight straight back on.

Over the next few years more of my mate's wives started coming to see what all the fuss was about. Had to tell them things like not to put oil down the sink as it goes straight to my fruit trees, a couple of comfrey leaves after their business in the composting toilet etc but generally let them relax. I found them wandering into the vege garden when I was there and chatting about the tomatoes, showing them my beautiful soil etc. Then I found them wandering in the vege gardens by themselves. I could nearly hear their brains ticking over. Then they started complimenting on the quality of my fruit and vege's compared to the shops. Later on a surf trip to the Goldie I found they had started growing some fruit and vege's and showing me their beautiful soil that they had built up.

I guess what I'm saying is this Doom is too much for most people, they get angry if you try to get them to take the 'red pill'. But if you let them 'find' another way which fun and entertaining they'll jump at it. It's hard work but only if we call it 'Work!' We don't call going to the Gym or doing Triathlons (I don't to any of these things) work just enjoyable physical exercise.

I don't think we'll have complete doom, just that things will get a lot harder and harder very soon. It's probably happening now. I think they'll be rationing for essential services and agriculture but not for Sunday Drives so the sooner we start doing small things to save money on food, petrol, electricity etc the more we can mitigate the drama.

My Opinion only of-course.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crusty', 'I') guess what I'm saying is this Doom is too much for most people, they get angry if you try to get them to take the 'red pill'. But if you let them 'find' another way which fun and entertaining they'll jump at it. It's hard work but only if we call it 'Work!' We don't call going to the Gym or doing Triathlons (I don't to any of these things) work just enjoyable physical exercise.

I don't think we'll have complete doom, just that things will get a lot harder and harder very soon. It's probably happening now. I think they'll be rationing for essential services and agriculture but not for Sunday Drives so the sooner we start doing small things to save money on food, petrol, electricity etc the more we can mitigate the drama.

My Opinion only of-course.

[AusJake]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here are 2 options you either sit on your back porch with a gun on your knee worrying about your neighbours coming to steal your food or you go around to your neighbours and help them grow their food and share the excess and sleep well at night.
If everyone is growing food there is nothing to steal,the thief will be the guy without the veggie garden.
You can shoot/punish him which benefits no one, or teach him to grow food or to use his skills to do something the community needs.

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', 'I')t makes you a resource-rich, poorly defended target.

[Crusty]

Like Loki I left the City for a more 'real' lifestyle and for the first few years I did farmhand work and fruit picking around NSW and Queensland whilst searching for a place in the country to settle down. Working on an organic farm would of been nicer but never worked on one.

It really does give you a Glimpse of a Peak Oil world if people have to migrate back to the country.

A lot of the fruit pickers were 'Boat People', illegal immigrants who were released from detention centres on temporary protection visa's and as such weren't entitled to unemployment benefits etc. They mostly came from oppressive regime's where life was very different from here. As there's a kind of equality while fruit picking that you won't find anywhere else in our society, the discussions are very interesting as they practiced their English. They were Bankers, small business owners, Doctors, Engineers etc and now they're fruit pickers. Conversations like, 'No, women are equal here, like the same as men.' 'You can trust the Police if you get into trouble' 'The church doesn't make the laws, they're kind of under the Government' etc. I don't know if they weren't taught these things in the detention centres or they just didn't believe them as they were the Govt.

I've found country people to be far more relaxed than City ones. Might have something to do with their connection with the earth and seasons or maybe the lack of shops. The Rules are different and your behavior is closely monitored, everyone knows what everyone else is doing!! Keeping up with the Jones's is still there but not as much. Takes a while to be accepted into the community but when you are there is a far greater feeling of belonging. Your status improves if you put back into the community in a real way (for me the community garden). Everything is connected here, I'm on the Dragon Boat team which has people in the Community Garden which has people on the committee for the Sport and Recreation Centre and is on their land, whose secretary is the owner of the local supermarket and treasurer is the editor of the local paper etc All in all I like it better.

80% of the food sold in Aust comes from two players, Coles and Woolworths and they are squeezing the farmers. The farmers profit margins are becoming much smaller to the point that they are now walking off the farm. The ones who are doing well are those who are selling direct to the retailers in their region or at Farmer's Markets which are popping up everywhere.

I think this is what a Post Peak lifestyle is or is going to look like. People leaving the City and working in agricultural pursuits outside of their city occupations (like the Boat People if pushed, or like Loki and me if you jump). The food you eat and the stuff you buy will come from your local/regional area. People moving to country communities changing their outlooks, losing their anonymity but improving their quality of life compared to what city living will become.

Time will tell, it's happening now I think, just very slowly.

[Ibon]

Crusty, your posts have an element of calm sanity which conveys the points you are making as well as the content of what you are saying. There is a slower cadence to your writing that reflects a less neurotic view of things which is frankly refreshing to read.

The greater consumer collective is fed on a banquet of hyped up needs, desires and fears which is precisely what makes them so easily manipulated by corporations and governments.

Your writing reflects a gentle anarchy which seems to hint at something to come post peak as the consumer paradigm looses its grip on the collective.

[thuja]

Crusty while I appreciate that you have set up a good situation where you're at, I am very very tired of the notion that rural living is the only way to go and that city life is not "real", whatever the f that means.

Just to give you an idea of my life- I live in a small city in the States; I walk or bike most everywhere including my work. I grow food on my property and keep chickens. We have a well insulated house with a wood stove and solar panels. We are very friendly with our neighbors and share a lot of meals, child care, etc. Portland is within biking distance of farm and forest land. What is not "real" about that?

One of the supreme advantages of city living is that you can get around without a vehicle and people can live compactly without having to drive as much to get groceries, for services, etc.

In many ways it will be rural areas that are hit the hardest by economic collapse. There will be no money for keeping up rural roads, schools, electricity, fire and police. Sort of like when a person is freezing; the extremities go first.

So please, share your story...sounds great. I support people living close to the land in the country. But the superiority and sense that you and those who think like you will be best prepared while mocking the city folk...bah...

[Crusty]

Sorry it came across that way Thuja it certainly was not my intent.

I lived in a Capital City which was no where near biking distance from any rural land. My ex was (and probably still is) very much into the consumerist lifestyle and not very Green. Infact she would of viewed you (& me) as Lefty Weirdo's with chickens vege's etc. I was caught up in that lifestyle of keeping up with the Jones's, working in a Job I Hated, to buy stuff I didn't need, to impress people I didn't even like!!! The whole thing was a bizarre "unreal" kind of Wally World. Moving to the Country was a hard decision to make but once there I loved it!!

Obviously I don't know what's going to happen, but I would of loved someone to share their experiences of a City Boy moving to a Country Lifestyle. This is all I'm trying to do. Have no doubt that I'm not the smartest tool on the shelf, no-one is. I do love this lifestyle in the country but that is only my opinion, and if my writing reflects that, Great.

You could be right about a resilient city lifestyle being the way to go, you should write about it and let people know of your opinions and experiences. People are making big decisions about a life Post Peak Oil, they need as much information as they can get.

As I used to tell my Kids, "Listen to all the information but then make sure you make your own Decision!!"

(on reading this back to myself is sounds like I'm up myself again, I think it's just the way I write!!)

[Mesuge]

Anecdotal side story, over the weekend helped to haul by hand only stupid few cubic (m3) of fire-wood into the wood shed at the summer house family property. Basically nothing to brag about for the 19th century (or more vintage) homesteader or even 20-21st century prepper, just another hard day in somewhat coldish weather. But definately a killer task for the avg. cityboy, "activity" you definately feel in your bones and joints for a couple of next days. Many of the "millenials" and "gen-Y-ers" fixed 24/7 to their various gagdetary "mobile i-visiors" are for some rude awakening, and that's with the proviso they own some land in the first place. The powerdown is certainly not going to be a virtual 3D spectacle to be watched from a sofa.

It has been said many times before, but worth repeating, it's the combo of malnutrition, hard work, insecurity (wars and refugees), exposure to the elements and deteoriating health which will cull the masses under 1bln. global pop in short order (over the span of next 50-100-150 yrs).

[thuja]

Crusty like I said I appreciate your posts amd how you're carving out a powered down life. As you can see where you are living, the consumerist rat race exists in the country as well as the city. Plenty of mcmansions and people commuting 100 miles a day buying groceries from two towns over out in the exurbs and country. Just as there is apalling wastefulness in the city.

It truly is a matter of getting by with a lot less, sharing, getting efficient, growing some of your own and depending more on yourself and your community than the government or your corporate job that could end tomorrow.

City and country are interdependent. Rural folks provide food raw goods, etc. City folks provide the manufactured goods necessary even for a 19th century lifestyle such as fencing, cast iron stoves, guns, bullets, axes, dishes, silverware, books, eyeglasses, dentures, medicines, etc.

The relationship between town and country is symbiotic. To suggest, as some do here, that the only answer to Peak Oil is to flee the city for the refuge of 40 acres and a mule neglects the need for the essential goods and services a city provides.

The romantic notion that rural existence is somehow purer than city life goes back a long way. Carving out a powered down country ife is a great way to go. But if it comes with the sense that only the rural can be saved in the coming hard times...then I must part ways with that belief.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', ' ')Many of the "millenials" and "gen-Y-ers" fixed 24/7 to their various gagdetary "mobile i-visiors" are for some rude awakening, and that's with the proviso they own some land in the first place. The powerdown is certainly not going to be a virtual 3D spectacle to be watched from a sofa.

[Quinny]

I didn't initially feel qualified to comment on this thread as my life is still very much a standard (but much poorer than before) western lifestyle.

Upon reflection, I recall our holidays in rural France, where we had a house in a small hamlet which was mainly occupied by semi-employed people. They all had a bit of land and were basically subsistence farmers using their land to supplement very low paid jobs pensions or unemployment benefits.

They didn't have a lot of material wealth, but the lifestyle was such that we spent as many weeks a year there as possible. Community was very important and entertainment was usually self generated and involved visits to each others 'Cave' to sample home made 'eau de vie' / wine or butcher someones Pig.

They didn't actually work that hard, but did support each other and shared a lot of equipment and tools. They also ate well, although diet was seasonal and they would rarely splash out on impoted food.

When I read the OP it echoed the lifestyle I experienced there and the thing was although we didn't have TV or computers for several weeks, we didn't really miss them and our evenings flew by talking with each other.

I realise we only had a snapshot of this lifestyle, but two of the 5 families in the co-operatives ended up moving out there for the simpler lifestyle. Maybe it's not for everyone, but it's certainly do-able for some.

[Newfie]

I've been ignoring this thread for a bit. Time to chime in with my off-beat solution.

First I don't think that the original question can be answered. The answer lies in how the system unwinds in your particular area. I think that if you live sufficiently far from the maddening crowd, and have a sufficient rural buffer to the big cities the doomstead approach may work well. But most of us live within a tank of gas of a major urban center. Things could unwind differently for us. Things could well be very different in Australia than they are in Philadelphia where I am.

My personal situation is that my Wife wants to continue living in a Center City location for a while yet. She is on board with a lot of the doomer mentality but can not bring herself to move yet. And we are aging, too damn old and lazy to start a dirt farm.

Our solution has been to buy a sailboat that is quite capable. I fear that the city could turn into a very nasty place very quickly, Philadelphia has had some close calls in my residence. The sailboat gives us a way to get out of Dodge and to be safe while we assess where to go. Now we also do have a place to go, but it would take work once we get there.

As noted elsewhere travel will be difficlut in an oil starved world. The sailboat gives us a way to move people and/or goods and is thus a potential source of income/barter.

I place a very high premium on flexibility so all our preparations go in that direction. Redundancy and flexibility.

And, in the meantime, it can be fun and rewarding.

Not for everyone, but it is my personal solution. I'm not alone, but those folks don't hang here.

[Crusty]

Really interesting issues getting raised now.

In Queensland we have an excellent electric rail network that follows the entire coast. This would be great for the exchanges between country and city but as with a complex systems it broke down with the recent floods. It's up and running now with lots of machinery and money but I wonder about its resilience in a Post Peak World. Newfie got me thinking about my History lessons in Adelaide, South Australia when growing up. Goods were transported around the state in the 1800's by the 'Mosquito Fleet', lots of privately owned small sailing boats. As Newfie said, it could be geared up quickly if needs be or slowly adding a lot of resilience in a Post Peak world, especially in Australia which is mostly developed on the coast (desert in the middle).

I still think that the population will have to change from (in Australia) from 20% Rural - 80% City to 80% Rural -20%City to make this transition to Post Peak Oil work. (I hope Thuja is sleeping) I don't consider being able to ride a bicycle to a rural area a City. In Australia we would call that a Regional Centre, I mean cities, Capital Cities, having millions of people and all the associated benefits and problems with no direct contact with a rural areas.

To follow another issue raised, when I was fruit picking, (mandarin thinning actually) I got to work and was chatting to a couple of Lads who were starting a new row when I was halfway along one at the end of the day before. I said to them that they'd probably pass me before the end of the day. They smiled and said, "We'll pass you before 10am old man!!" I worked like a Maniac, forearms and fingers scratched and sore. They passed me about 1pm and said, "You go pretty fast for an old guy" I smiled and slowed down once they'd passed. Young Lads, no matter what country, are always filled with testosterone, go fast and want to compete. The ones that struggle in this modern world could do very well and the ones that thrive in this complex system may well struggle, however, I believe that once their away from the Computer Games and reacquainted with physical labor they'll be fine. We Boomers on the other hand had better stock up with lots of Aspirin for a Post Peak World!!

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')'ve been ignoring this thread for a bit. Time to chime in with my off-beat solution.

First I don't think that the original question can be answered. The answer lies in how the system unwinds in your particular area. I think that if you live sufficiently far from the maddening crowd, and have a sufficient rural buffer to the big cities the doomstead approach may work well. But most of us live within a tank of gas of a major urban center. Things could unwind differently for us. Things could well be very different in Australia than they are in Philadelphia where I am.

My personal situation is that my Wife wants to continue living in a Center City location for a while yet. She is on board with a lot of the doomer mentality but can not bring herself to move yet. And we are aging, too damn old and lazy to start a dirt farm.

Our solution has been to buy a sailboat that is quite capable. I fear that the city could turn into a very nasty place very quickly, Philadelphia has had some close calls in my residence. The sailboat gives us a way to get out of Dodge and to be safe while we assess where to go. Now we also do have a place to go, but it would take work once we get there.

As noted elsewhere travel will be difficlut in an oil starved world. The sailboat gives us a way to move people and/or goods and is thus a potential source of income/barter.

I place a very high premium on flexibility so all our preparations go in that direction. Redundancy and flexibility.

And, in the meantime, it can be fun and rewarding.

Not for everyone, but it is my personal solution. I'm not alone, but those folks don't hang here.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
')
For what it’s worth, the best security you can buy is to find yourself a small rural community that you can become a part of.

[JessiRhea]

This is a subject that is very near and dear to my heart. I gotta say, I do feel positive about the possibility of impending societal collapse, and yes, in a sort of guilty way. My husband and I are dirt poor, doing a work exchange at a bamboo farm (working for rent on half a trailer on about 5 acres). But it seems that the worse things get economically, the better I actually feel. If I can't afford to buy lots of good food, I learn to grow it. If I can't afford to go to the movies, I spend time outside watching the chickens scratch around and kind of meditate. If I can't afford new clothes, I learn to patch. When we were getting our goats and chickens, we couldn't afford building materials so we learned to build everything from natural timber that we cut down ourselves. When money gets really tight and we can't afford feed for said animals, we learn the best ways to grow their food and allow them to forage for themselves. In doing these things I've found that I can easily get by with less and less, and I think I'm in a good position to fend for myself if I can no longer depend on the goods of society. Last winter we lived on less than $300 a month, and did surprisingly well. Actually, we're moving soon to some land in Alabama that my aunt has owned for like 40 years but never did anything with it. She told us we could go camp out there, build a cabin, whatever. And this makes me really happy, because it's going to force me to rely on myself and live more primitively than ever before, and that will allow me to become even more self-sufficient. It's out in the middle of nowhere, the nearest sizable town being 2 hours away. So yeah, I definitely feel a bit of pride in the knowledge that, should the SHTF, I'm probably not going to be that adversely affected (aside from having to defend my little plot from invaders, but again, it's out in the middle of nowhere and we're taking measures as well to learn to defend ourselves and our property). I've learned that, as I move further away from the normal consumerism mentality and way of living, life just feels more natural and more right. I may not benefit from the comforts and entertainments of modern life, but I feel more fulfilled deep down, and live in a more constant state of happiness. Honestly, I wouldn't mind one bit if I could no longer go to the grocery store or drive into town for some McDonald's. Good riddance. I'll take cooking over an open fire and trapping rabbits, thank you very much. So yeah. There's that.

[thuja]

Jessi you seem like just the sort who could "go country" and make it so good on you. But I wonder for most folks. I don't know anyone who can be even 30 % self-sustaining. Folks need groceries, farm equipment, tools and things for house repair, county roads, fire protection, schools, a functioning mail system, propane for their tanks or batteries for their solar array, etc.

Moving towards increased self-sufficiency is one thing. Claiming the ability to be self-sufficient is another.

[JessiRhea]

People think they need those things because they've always had them. Once a person is faced with a situation in which they are forced to do without certain things, ingenuity can kick in and they may find that they don't need them after all, like electricity, toilet paper, the daily bath. Most people these days aren't fed the information they would need to be self sufficient, but the information IS out there. If you have a willingness to learn and if you're open minded, figuring out how to live off the land isn't that hard. I mean, people go camping all the time. It's not like people don't know how to cook with real fire instead of an electric stove (well, some people might not, like my princess sister, but it's something easily learned). And some of it is common sense; you don't have a shovel to dig your privy, so you use a big stick and your hands. Most tools and farming implements can be fashioned out of found or raw materials. They may not be virtually unbreakable or especially sharp, but they'll do in a pinch and you can always make more. Someone may think that, in order to be self-sufficient, they need solar panels for electricity. But how about just not using electricity? The most basic things like lights, refrigeration, an electric well pump, are really just luxuries. A person can use candles. A person can dry their food instead of putting it in the fridge. A person can haul water or pump it out of the ground by hand, even dig a well and dip a bucket in (that's what we're gonna do when we get to where we're going). All that stuff certainly takes more time and energy/strength, but if you find yourself out of work anyways then you have the time to devote to those basic chores of living. People may think they need fire protection, schools, etc. But it's not a basic necessity of life. Those things haven't always been around for every person, and humans have gotten by. Sure, it's nice to be able to send your kids to school so they can get office jobs. But if things are headed where I think they are, that's not going to be an issue. Some things have really improved the quality of life, of course, like being able to go to a hospital to deliver a baby. So those things that really can be the difference between life and death are going to be sad to lose. But the human species will survive even if women have to start popping them out at home. And we generally have a better understanding these days of basic medical procedures and sanitation, so even where health is concerned we're in a better position to stay healthy and treat illness, even in the absence of hospitals.

Anyways, I went off on a tangent for a minute there, but my point is that, even though most people won't be happy to have to fend for themselves, it's doable. The important thing is to get information about how to survive with the most minimal amenities. Not everyone can be euphoric about living in a shack in the woods. But when you're talking about surviving the collapse, it's not about finding your ideal life. It's about staying alive, healthy, and safe.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
A doomer 8 hours a day on his computer is very similar to a surburban commuter experiencing road rage stuck in traffic. The adrenalin has no physical let out and your aggression, anxiety and fear levels sky rocket so that your ability to objectively analyze news events or trends become skewed.

Physical labor takes all the edge off the imbalances and instabilities inherent in these tenuous of times.