[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')tanford researchers have developed a battery that takes advantage of the difference in salinity between freshwater and seawater to produce electricity. Anywhere freshwater enters the sea, such as river mouths or estuaries, could be potential sites for a power plant using such a battery.

As an indicator of the battery's potential for producing power, Cui's team calculated that if all the world's rivers were put to use, their batteries could supply about 2 terawatts of electricity annually -- that's roughly 13 percent of the world's current energy consumption.

The battery itself is simple, consisting of two electrodes -- one positive, one negative -- immersed in a liquid containing electrically charged particles, or ions. In water, the ions are sodium and chlorine, the components of ordinary table salt. Initially, the battery is filled with freshwater and a small electric current is applied to charge it up. The freshwater is then drained and replaced with seawater. Once the discharge is complete, the seawater is drained and replaced with freshwater and the cycle can begin again.

"The water for this method does not have to be extremely clean," he said. Storm runoff and gray water could potentially be useable. A power plant operating with 50 cubic meters of freshwater per second could produce up to 100 megawatts of power, according to the team's calculations.

[JRP3]

Not quite accurate. UPS batteries are lead acid, their production volume price efficiencies stopped many years ago. Laptop batteries have both improved and lowered costs, and they've had at least 10 years of development to do so. My laptop has 3 times the run time of my old one and cost almost half as much, partly because or improved and cheaper cells. Tesla leveraged that form factor in their favor to create the most energy dense EV battery pack. Those cells are still showing improvements and Tesla's new Model S will take advantage of that fact. Actual EV sized cells have not yet been produced in any real volume, and the chemistries are constantly improving. Continuing advancements coupled with real volume production will lower pack costs even without some miracle breakthrough.

[The_Toecutter]

To add to JR3P's statement, Argonne National Laboratories quoted $250/kWh in autmotive mass production for lithium ion... in 2003.

LiFePO4 batteries are the closest any EV sized battery has come to high volume production(besides lead acid), and the price of bulk orders is in the $300/kWh range(Or, about $9,000 for a pack to give a converted Ford Taurus a realistic 80-100 mile highway range, or a streamlined composite-bodied midsized car a 200+ mile range). Imagine what real automotive volume would do. While the shelf life truly remains to be seen with this chemistry(due to commercial examples being semi-recent), it may be 20 years or more; we know for a fact today it is at least 5 years as evidenced by a number of conversions that started using them back then and are still using them.

JR3P himself is driving such a LiFePO4 conversion right now. Although it is a conventional-bodied car with a small pack(probably around $4500 worth of batteries?), it is still getting 50-60 miles range and performance is good. I personally think his pack will last 100,000 miles or more. Even if it lasts only 40,000 miles, the lack of engine maintenance will still make the vehicle a huge money saver over its gasoline counterpart in the long term, and when replacement time finally does arrive, better/cheaper tech may be available at the consumer level.

NiMH are proven to last at least a decade in EV applications though(a few electric Toyota RAV4s with packs exceeding 150,000 miles life, Southern California Edison studies confirming repeated 80,000+ mile pack life, ect), and even with the nickel shortage we have, high volume could still yield $300/kWh today(UC Davis quoted $225/kWh in 2003, Rob Stemple, formerly of GM, quoted $150/kWh in 1998). These are robust and proven, but due to political reasons, unavailable for hobbyists and small start-ups.

Battery technology is the biggest technical 'hurdle' to EV adoption, but it is not a hurdle that any longer involves real compromise, either, and dare I say that the technology for a 200+ mile range EV at an affordable price existed in 1996. James Worden's Solectria Sunrise would have been a $20,000 car in volume *with* its NiMH pack; the automakers wouldn't touch it, and now a few gurus in the field, such as Lee Hart, are trying to revive this car as a kit(it's streamlining is good enough to allow real-world highway ranges of 100 miles with ~1000 lbs of lead acid batteries; a V6 non-hybrid gasoline version would probably yield 60 mpg highway).

LiFePO4 may prove to be even better than NiMH as well; the materials are more abundant, for one thing. 60 Wh/kg is good enough to make a car with a realistic 150 mile range(or 200+ miles hypermiling). 100 Wh/kg is what today's 'cheap' off the shelf LiFePO4 are capable of, and the lithium ion batteries used in the Tesla Roadster are roughly 160 Wh/kg.

There are prototype batteries from SION and other companies claiming in excess of 200 Wh/kg, but very rarely are they third party tested. The theory behind them is sound, at least.

We don't need a better battery so much as we need someone to start producing the cars. Good thing Nissan and Mitsubishi are at least looking at this now, even if their efforts are still subpar to those of some hobbyists 15 years ago that had to make due with less resources and inferior technology yet got better range/performance for less money than the cars Nissan/Mitsubishi are ready to sell. At least Nissan and Mitsubishi are giving the technology a chance... finally. I'd be inclined to buy one if I hadn't sunk my money into the GT6. The Volt is an overweight, overcomplicated, overpriced joke that would have been cheaper to build as a pure EV with 150 miles range, but I am curious about GM's electric Cruze concept(it doesn't have very good aerodynamics though and that will hurt it dearly on battery pack cost unless GM uses off the shelf large format LiFePO4 batteries, which I don't think it is doing).

My project car is sitting in another state waiting for me to order a battery pack and a controller for it and finally test it and drive it. I can't wait... 250 miles range is possible for a $12k non-automotive-volume pack in the right car; maybe I'll be the first to prove it(on a side note, Dave Cloud has demonstrated in excess of 200 miles range at a steady 65 mph, including hills, in a lead acid battery powered Geo Metro with extensive streamlining and a 1900 lb pack, and lead acid batteries are a highly outdated technology. Is 200 miles range not good enough? A car like his could have been done in the 1970s on a truck chassis with a streamlined body). The hobbyists, with at most 5 figure budgets are the ones setting the world records in performance(such as John Wayland) or range(James Worden, Dave Cloud) when the auto manufacturers have billions of dollars at their disposal. High school kids were building EVs with a real world range of 100 miles 15 years ago, and 150 miles range in hypermiling conditions(See Tour De Sol entires "Solar Bolt", "Spyder Juice", ect all using golf cart batteries).

I keep hoping the auto industry will see the light and actually follow it, and they are starting to glimpse it. Whether or not they will follow through with it when the ICE is their cash cow remains to be seen. This late in the game, I don't think more than a few ten thousand highway capable EVs will be sold before collapse to 3rd world living conditions has occured, but hopefully I'm wrong on that. This technology has the potential to eliminate about 40% of our oil consumption before we even need to compromise(and we should), but for it to be effective, we have to have it in the process of implementation *before* peak oil due to the slow rate our auto fleet turns over, and we have already passed peak light sweet crude, and the economy already is in a state of collapse...

[JRP3]

Yes I hit a bit over 50 miles last summer with my $4500 pack, with over sized rear tires and no aero mods other than a belly pan. Once I replace the rear tires and at least close off the grill opening I can probably get 55 miles.
You might be able to take advantage of the new lithium sulfur batteries from Wintston/Thundersky that should be available next year, around 220 wh/kg.
These guys are doing some interesting things with lightweight materials for EV's and using the new Yasa motors. Cd could be better but they are heading in the right direction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvWduKDj3Tk

[mos6507]

"My project car is sitting in another state waiting for me to order a battery pack and a controller for it and finally test it and drive it. I can't wait."

Obviously you CAN wait. You've been talking about EV conversions for years and haven't heard anything about finishing one. Now that oil is above $100 again, suddenly the discussion resumes?

[Mesuge]

As you know LiFePO4 "bricks" are not meant for peak power application (~3C discharge), that's why Tesla is using and refining that particular approach of utilizing mega serio-parallel pack of smaller cells, and it's a cross platform approach not only aimed at sportscar segment Roadster (RAV4, Smart, ..).

In order to effectively utilize LiFePO4 in automotive application you need lots of space, so there goes t-shape tunnel like in EV1 or similarly in Volt/Karma. The big auto can easily reproduced something like rehashed EV1 alu chassis/resin body either in coupe or sedan/hatch version with 200km (realistic not PR joke) range.

But would you buy one, when massproduced econonoboxes with 60-70mpg of today will remain cheaper by 2-3x? That's the same repeating burning question. It still doesn't make sense for most people in our current setting of disposable toys and appliances with cheap running energy on top of that. However, when the gas/diesel gov. vouchers hit the street, it will be too late both for producers and consumers to adapt rapidly.

In terms of disruption look at Toyota now, their hybrid programme is Japan based manuf. and it took quite a hit, also their other facilities around the globe are affected. Similar disruption into the chain can be expected down the road. It's easier to CNC all the small bits and pieces needed for ICE engine from a block of raw material at one place, say in Romanian factory, than to assemble EV/PHEV with all that electronics and dedicate fly by wire acces. parts, which is a task for which you need huge network of suppliers.

I'm certainly not saying EVs don't work, but you have to be deep pocketed individual living in ClubMed/Calif area (PV) or near 24/365 running creek for small hydro. And by that time you might rather appreciate offroad version instead of speedy or city low rider. And since Fiat-Chrysler killed that EV programme, no EV Jeeps are on the horizon either, I'm not talking about diy possibilities though.

There is a reason why ICE rulez, it's because it maximizes the effects from fossil combustion in INSTANT fashion, plus it's a mighty pleasure appliance. Nowadays, there are generations of people who take for granted a crazy situation whereby mutli-ton vehicle is powered by speed pedal operated by 60kg girl for groceries shopping.

I'm of the opinion the mobility bonanza of yesterday will just crash into the wall, only the wealthy and couple of their minions will continue driving traditional cars on daily basis. The rest will have to stay home and work in cottage or local industries, agriculture and gardens. The attempt to revive waterways and animals will help some, but this will be of token significance. Check 100-150yrs old photos from your area, we are not exactly going into repeating this exact setting, but in terms of energy usage some similiraties apply. Especially in transportation less fat, more walking.

And that's the uber optimisitc (unreal aka "no final war") scenario anyway

[JRP3]

Tesla used the LiCo cells for their energy density and low cost from the commodity form factor. I've pulled 5.5C from my 100ah CALB cells on occasion just for fun but most of my driving is done between 1-2.5C with my 115V system. A higher voltage system would have even lower C rate demands.

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '&')quot;My project car is sitting in another state waiting for me to order a battery pack and a controller for it and finally test it and drive it. I can't wait."

Obviously you CAN wait. You've been talking about EV conversions for years and haven't heard anything about finishing one. Now that oil is above $100 again, suddenly the discussion resumes?

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'Y')ou might be able to take advantage of the new lithium sulfur batteries from Wintston/Thundersky that should be available next year, around 220 wh/kg.

[AgentR11]

Just want to chime in again on this. I don't want to be construed as being "against" the notion of a battery powered vehicle; if one ever made economic sense, I might even buy one.

My point though, I think stands. This thread has lots of input about what will happen with new-tech-X, as well as what enthusiasts are attempting and doing with their own projects, and yet the lack of commercially, independently viable vehicles remains the status quo.

I do hope, one day a mass produced electric car that can range 300 miles@70mph with A/C on will sell for less than $15k (US$2011); but we are a long... LONG way from that point.

[AusJake]

I would love to build an electric car with a backup bio diesel generator. unfortunately i dont have the knowhow to do this.
Any clues on what course i could take to learn how to build something like this?

Also what car would be a good platform that has good aerodynamics?

[JRP3]

Click the DIYelectriccar link in my sig.

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', ' ')
I do hope, one day a mass produced electric car that can range 300 miles@70mph with A/C on will sell for less than $15k (US$2011); but we are a long... LONG way from that point.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'I')f gas is $6+ per gallon, or simply not available, people will be quite happy with a 100 mile EV for $25K that still gets them to work and the store every day for pennies.

[JRP3]

Looks as if a bunch of posts disappeared. I'll just say that you have to compare similarly priced vehicles, not vehicles $10-$15K apart. No one looking at a $15K econobox is in the market for a $30K EV, so comparing payback times between the two is meaningless.

[kz400]

Battery tech is a small part of the problem, IMO the Volt (or at least the concept of it) is the way we need to go. Very few people are going to buy a car with a limited range, a car that can go 150mi on electric only (with all accessories on) and unlimited on gas is the solution (not the volt). I am a GM technician and the only one in the shop to work on hybrids, the biggest customer complaint is fuel economy less than expected. A gently driven yukon/tahoe hybrid will get 27mpg not bad for what it is, but driven normally (not hard) it gets 21 only 5-6mpg better than a normal one 15-16mpg. The Saturn vue and parallel truck hybrid have less of a gain. I know I got off topic but what is needed is a vehicle that can charge at home (almost everyone has 220v service) and drive to and from work, plus a little extra to get them into the market, once in, work charging stations will become available and as the infrastructure increases so will the technology. The key is to get a mainstream product that is only dependent on the existing infrastructure, CNG is great but only caught on were filling stations were readily available if you don't believe me look for cng stations around Chicago.

[Mesuge]

Besides the innitial lies of GM about developing an EV, they produced just another hybrid, more complicated (adding another clutch), and expensive to manufacture in comparison to HSD from Toyota and similar (e.g. Ford's).

Hm, as posted numerous times before the problem with Volt/Ampera is the execution in its first generation is rather poor, not necessarily on the e-drivetrain side, their batt. pack seems credibly robust, however these basic flops like little space for the rear seat, especially poor seating beside the driver is a joke for this pricetag.

Should they have the chance to massproduce the thing in 2nd/3rd generation at least on the production volume of Toyota did so far, they might have something deserving to be considered more closely.

Now, there is this tsunami and production shutdown thing going in Japan, so the HSD expansion plans are on the hold for some time. Not very good time to be shopping around. Perhaps the best is to wait for japanese sorting it out, or these Tesla/Fisker upcomming smaller platforms etc.

And I'm not even considering the half baked products like Leaf or Ford's BEV conversion not based on dedicated platform. So, there is nothing on the market till 2013?

[JRP3]

The LEAF is too heavy and not aerodynamic enough but it's not really a bad first effort. It's popular enough to outpace production. Saying a 100 mile or so range EV won't work is obviously not a true statement.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'L')ooks as if a bunch of posts disappeared. I'll just say that you have to compare similarly priced vehicles, not vehicles $10-$15K apart. No one looking at a $15K econobox is in the market for a $30K EV, so comparing payback times between the two is meaningless.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', 'S')aying a 100 mile or so range EV won't work is obviously not a true statement.