[anador]

Ha ha yeah, Well by the time that happens we will probably be having 70 degree weather in new england at midwinter so I won't need to burn wood!

[vision-master]

lol, you will do just fine....

Me, I'm not so sure I'll make it. If TSHTF, I'm finished.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anador', 'I') mean, for our wood boiler system, it is alot less complicated.

We are able to burn full sections of logs, so we only have to split what we put in our fireplace.

We do still have to cut the large logs down into sections but that is not hard.

We can burn green wood and trash wood (like pine) that you typically cant burn indoors because of creosote.

You fill the thing up once a day in winter and it the furnace controls the burn based on demand.
When the thermostat calls for heat the computer opens a damper and activates a blower fan quickly generating alot of heat. Once the water jacket is at the right temp the damper closes and the fire essentially goes out, the damper allows in just enough air for the coals to smolder, like a cigarette, and if the system doesnt call for heat it can sit on this (standby) mode for days, consuming little wood and waiting for the system to call.

You dont have to start a new fire every time the thermostat calls for heat. That would be ridiculous.
Its kind of a fill it and forget it thing.

As I said, wood is free for us, but you dont have to use virgin lumber as feedstock and you don't necessarily have to buy wood even if you dont have a connect like we do.

Pickling plants, vegetable packers, furniture factories and other such places usually ship and receive alot of merchandise on pallets. Usually you can go down to such an operation and take tons of dry pine from their trash heaps as pallets. They never mind, as they have to pay to get rid of the stuff anyway.

Its easy to find waste wood for free if you really put your mind to it.

our system also has a catalytic converter so dangerous fumes and smoky releases are uncommon, typically the stack has only clear air coming from it, or small puffs of grey pleasant smelling woodsmoke.

[Puddnhead]

Long winter underwear, sweaters, wool socks, a hat... seventy years ago most people kept their homes between 50 and 60. Keeping your body warm is a lot easier that keeping a house warm. There was recently a study that also showed that keeping your house cool helps you lose weight.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/02 ... =weekly_nl

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110223/hl_ ... re_obesity

[Fishman]

Puddn, you have it exactly right. There will be screams to heat the entire house of the poor, until we run out of money. Better for all of us to adapt quickly, single room, lots of cloths. Reading this site, you are already ready for this, right?

[Puddnhead]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'P')uddn, you have it exactly right. There will be screams to heat the entire house of the poor, until we run out of money. Better for all of us to adapt quickly, single room, lots of cloths. Reading this site, you are already ready for this, right?

[Frank]

Outdoor boilers are subject to new rules but they are still horribly inefficient. Free wood is great but they pollute like crazy. Every time the damper closes the things sit there and smolder which isn't exactly clean burning. Wood supply will be an issue. Inefficient boilers can reduce sustainable wood supply by a factor of two. Wood gasification boilers are approx. 2X as efficient, especially if heat storage is used (ex. tank in basement) and this also translates into a lot less wood management hassle/cost.

If you're only paying $.12/kWh for electricity you could consider an air-to-air heat pump during shoulder seasons i.e. when temps are > 20F or so. They can have a coefficient of performance of 4:1 which is the equivalent of $.03/kWh or $1.20/gal. of oil.

80% of the homes in Maine still use fuel oil to heat and we have some of the highest electric rates in the nation. It's a huge issue.

[misterno]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anador', 'I') mean, for our wood boiler system, it is alot less complicated.

We are able to burn full sections of logs, so we only have to split what we put in our fireplace.

We do still have to cut the large logs down into sections but that is not hard.

We can burn green wood and trash wood (like pine) that you typically cant burn indoors because of creosote.

You fill the thing up once a day in winter and it the furnace controls the burn based on demand.
When the thermostat calls for heat the computer opens a damper and activates a blower fan quickly generating alot of heat. Once the water jacket is at the right temp the damper closes and the fire essentially goes out, the damper allows in just enough air for the coals to smolder, like a cigarette, and if the system doesnt call for heat it can sit on this (standby) mode for days, consuming little wood and waiting for the system to call.

You dont have to start a new fire every time the thermostat calls for heat. That would be ridiculous.
Its kind of a fill it and forget it thing.

As I said, wood is free for us, but you dont have to use virgin lumber as feedstock and you don't necessarily have to buy wood even if you dont have a connect like we do.

Pickling plants, vegetable packers, furniture factories and other such places usually ship and receive alot of merchandise on pallets. Usually you can go down to such an operation and take tons of dry pine from their trash heaps as pallets. They never mind, as they have to pay to get rid of the stuff anyway.

Its easy to find waste wood for free if you really put your mind to it.

our system also has a catalytic converter so dangerous fumes and smoky releases are uncommon, typically the stack has only clear air coming from it, or small puffs of grey pleasant smelling woodsmoke.

[anador]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', '
')I see your point but here is another question

can anyone go to any forest with a chainsaw in his hand and cut any tree he wants?

Isnt' there a law to prevent this? I would imagine you are probably cutting the old decaying trees not the young ones ( I hope)

Am I right? Otherwise, what if the local enforcement sees you?

I don't wanna see the days where thousands of people go to the nearest forest and cut any tree they can get their hands on when oil hits above $150.

[Ludi]

Someone might have mentioned it already but I would note that interior spaces were not heated until quite recently, when mass stoves and boilers were invented in the late 1700s or so. Prior to that fireplaces were used to heat people, not rooms, and to cook on, and many rooms did not have fireplaces. People wore what we would now consider outdoor clothes indoors, that is for men; long shirt, trousers, waistcoat, coat or jacket, and some kind of neck-wear such as a stock or cravat - for ladies; chemise, stays or corset, several petticoats, pantalettes once they had been invented, blouse or bodice, skirt, shawl, and cap. Nobody wore just one or two layers of fabric indoors except in summer or during certain periods of fashion such as the Regency during which period fashionable ladies regularly died of the cold indoors.

We are so spoiled.

[anador]

Yeah, It explains curtained beds, basically a tent inside the house which your body can keep warm.

Definitely will result in mass migrations south when people have no heat or food in that first powered down winter.

Would not want to be in the south around that time, most car dependent cities, most sprawl, crowds of unwashed unfed northerners pouring in....

It sort of like Miami international airport all the time

[Ludi]

But folks are used to air conditioning too, so what will they do in the South in the summer with no AC? And modern houses are not built to function without AC.

Lots of people will die of the heat in modern buildings with no AC (see European heat wave 2003).

[anador]

That is true. The good thing about poorer areas (at least in Miami) is that the majority of the buildings are from the 1960s and before, almost 100% of them didnt have a/c when built, so they can be converted back to using the drafts and sunshades they were designed to use to keep cool. Even though they are modernist buildings....

A drafty old house with weighted sash windows will be a boon in either climate, once the machine hum ceases.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anador', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', '
')I see your point but here is another question

can anyone go to any forest with a chainsaw in his hand and cut any tree he wants?

Isnt' there a law to prevent this? I would imagine you are probably cutting the old decaying trees not the young ones ( I hope)

Am I right? Otherwise, what if the local enforcement sees you?

I don't wanna see the days where thousands of people go to the nearest forest and cut any tree they can get their hands on when oil hits above $150.

[Ludi]

Forgot to mention both men and women wore stockings (wool or silk) covering at least up to the knee and generally higher. Shame on me for forgetting a layer of clothing!

<<<<< costume history buff

[anador]

From the Iowa forestry dept.

http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/definitions.html

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')oard foot. A unit of measure of wood 1" thick, and 1 foot on each side. Equals 1/12 cubic foot of wood. In practice, a board foot seldom contains 1/12th of a cubic foot due to loss from surfacing such as planing and sanding. For example, a 8 foot 2 x 4 would be said to have 5 and 1/3 board feet, but would actually be more like 4.08 board feet after losses from surfacing.

Cord. A unit of measure of wood that is equivalent to a pile of round wood 4 feet wide, 8 feet long and 4 feet high. Contains 128 cubic feet of wood and space. May contain approximately 80 to 90 cubic feet of solid wood. A common, but fairly meaningless conversion is 500 board feet per cord. See face cord.

[anador]

And as for soil depletion, the ashes can be recycled back to the soil from the high efficiency gennies. This would slow nutrient depletion to a crawl, and since the cycles take so long between harvests this is not really an issue.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anador', ']')A common, but fairly meaningless conversion is 500 board feet per cord.[/color] See face cord.

[anador]

Haha yeah,they said fairly meaningless as in "why would you ever need to use it", not "because its inaccurate".

As I said repeatedly this was a thought experiment dealing with ideals, theres really no need to get so scrappy. I didnt say It was something that could be built as is, but a spatial demonstration of a possible.. repeat..possible system.

I mean it doesnt help that woodlots have been used for thousands of years to supply firewood to rural people, theres not really anything being argued here.

Notice also how I said
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')using ideal values and can be expanded to produce more or less, and service more or less people.