[evilgenius]

I think it is interesting that fear of a nuclear strike against the US is prevalently mentioned while one against Israel is not. I should think it is much more likely that should the Pakistanis fall so far as to sell off or otherwise distribute working nuclear weapons that one will wind up in a van somewhere in the proximity of East Jerusalem. First of all, it is more likely because of the Muslim animosity towards Israel. Second, it is more likely because the US will annihilate any traceable source of nuclear material if there is an attack against it. If you think a van is nuts turn to the reality of the suicide bomber push now underway amongst Muslims as a purported means of push back against perceived enemies. A van in East Jerusalem with a nuke is only that trend carried to its ultimate extreme.

My question then pertains also to what the state of things after such an attack would be for Israel. If the US, for any reason, has abandoned Israel at that point (huge assumption) then Israel would be vulnerable in a way that it has not been since 1948. If the US is still there, but has made connections with various oil producing countries to ensure the flow of oil that fall short of meaning total abandonment of Israel, then Israel would only face a reversal of fortune, not potential elimination. Without the US they are probably gone.

I know it is tempting to go down the road of blame for atrocities committed against the Palestinians, but I wish to discuss this on a broader level. On that broader level the discussion goes beyond what factions of governments have done with their policies. We should discuss what has been and likely will be done amongst the reasons for potential effects as derived from causes, not as moral imperatives for action or inaction. To do otherwise is really dishonest. It takes the conversation away from probability and into, however justly founded, wish and spite.

[SeaGypsy]

I was one of the 2 who chose the second last option, that being the current middle east general crisis will not be related to the seperation of Israel and the USA.

I see an inevitable demise in this relationship in paralell with general demise of the USA; not as a deliberate policy directive on either side's agenda for the forseeable future. There is always a chance something could change to fundamentally change the relationship; but for the time being I very much doubt it.

Eventually peak oil will force the USA into a far more introspective state. Increasingly this will impact on the military colossus. Israel will eventually go down and when it does it will be ugly as hell.

Everything is going to change, novelty events of all kinds. the novelty of Israel reinventing it's relationship with it's neighbours would really be something. I doubt if anyone can realisticly see this happening. Of course it is the best that can be hoped for and is perhaps the only good thing the USA has been pushing for in the region under successive administrations since the dawn of Israel as a country.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')he US will abandon Israel when the Muslim vote in the USA becomes larger then the Jewish vote.

[crude_intentions]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'M')illions of your Hebie/Jeebus fundies say it's about the God Given Right of His Chosen People to their Promised Land.

[leal]

The option "It will happen within ten years." does also include the first three? So why vote for any of those three?

[kam3Oen]

The 800 pound gorilla in the room that Israel-haters manage to conveniently forget about when prophesising the end of Israel, is of course, Israel's hundreds of nukes. Game theory is pretty simple, and whether you're a hard-fisted arab dictator, a boy-raping Iranian mullah, an Allah-Akbar screaming terry, or a latte-sipping European jew hater, the realization that playing the total-war game against Israel will result in the destruction of you and yours and a good chunk of the earth, all for the satisfaction of destroying a tiny little nation, I believe will be enough. USA or not, I'm inclined to believe the dictators who rule (and will continue to rule with different names and faces) the middle east, will choose to rule nations and not piles of radioactive rubble.

[SeaGypsy]

I thought there was still considerable debate and a subsantial clandesting element to Israel's nukes?
I guess a parting gift from the USA would include a pile of them regardless, so you probably are correct Kam.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam3Oen', 'T')he 800 pound gorilla in the room that Israel-haters manage to conveniently forget about when prophesising the end of Israel, is of course, Israel's hundreds of nukes. Game theory is pretty simple, and whether you're a hard-fisted arab dictator, a boy-raping Iranian mullah, an Allah-Akbar screaming terry, or a latte-sipping European jew hater, the realization that playing the total-war game against Israel will result in the destruction of you and yours and a good chunk of the earth, all for the satisfaction of destroying a tiny little nation, I believe will be enough. USA or not, I'm inclined to believe the dictators who rule (and will continue to rule with different names and faces) the middle east, will choose to rule nations and not piles of radioactive rubble.

[kam3Oen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I') thought there was still considerable debate and a subsantial clandesting element to Israel's nukes?
I guess a parting gift from the USA would include a pile of them regardless, so you probably are correct Kam.

[SeaGypsy]

I have watched several beheadings of Americans by various Islamic fascists. I would agree that by comparison 'waterboarding' is relatively mild; even the disgusting stuff at Abu Grhaib pales by comparison. But torture is torture is torture and it is used to justify worse.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'w')ithdraw Israel's welfare ( as well welfare of all Israels neighbours that get it).

[Keith_McClary]

Hosni Mubarak resigns: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad hails 'a new Middle East'$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;In spite of all the (West's) complicated and satanic designs ... a new Middle East is emerging without the Zionist regime and US interference, a place where the arrogant powers will have no place," he told a rally in Tehran's Azadi Square to make the anniversary of the Revolution.

[Fishman]

KM, does that mean we get to
Cut welfare to the States of the assorted arab People, also? I vote to do that first.

And love your other quotes to play with
Millions of your mubi/doubi fundies say it's about the God Given Right of His Chosen People to their Promised Land.

KM, is there an arab word for "don't blow yourself up"? I don't think so.
And thus US will continue to support Israel.

[DomusAlbion]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '
')
Are Americans aware that the average income of Ashkenazi (European) Israelis is higher than most Americans plus free education and healthcare, thanks to US taxpayers.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DomusAlbion', 'D')o you mean the Ashkenazi(Germanic European) Jews exclusively

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'K')M, does that mean we get to
Cut welfare to the States of the assorted arab People, also? I vote to do that first.

[Revi]

You have to rent the movie Kingdom of Heaven. The crusaders had been living in Jerusalem for 100 years when they were defeated by Saladin.

Israel is a place that three cultures have been fighting for for over a thousand years.

There have been Jews there for a very long time.

I hope we don't abandon Israel, but I can see how it might happen.

Things could get really bad over there. Meaning even worse than they already are.

I hope they don't have to go through another diaspora.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'Y')ou have to rent the movie Kingdom of Heaven. The crusaders had been living in Jerusalem for 100 years when they were defeated by Saladin.

Israel is a place that three cultures have been fighting for for over a thousand years.

There have been Jews there for a very long time.

[kam3Oen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Jews had the same attitude to the "holy land" as most Christians do today - until about a century ago when some German Jews (Zionists) borrowed European ultra-nationalist ideas about ancestral fatherlands.

Hollywood movies usually feature Zionist tales. I suggest you look at modern (since the 1970s) histories based on peer reviewed sources. Most "history" of the "holy land" on the web (including Wikipedia) is just bible stories and Zionist spin. It's pretty easy to tell by the sources or lack thereof.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam3Oen', 't')he only people in the world today who are dumb enough not to be rooting for their own team are white people (unfortunately, many jews included). You hear that sound.....it's a Norwegian girl getting raped by a muslim