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Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Plantagenet » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 12:28:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', ' ')Bush...Blair....war criminal ...jail...

You are welcome to your personal opinion, but please don't confuse your personal beliefs and political viewpoint with reality.

You obviously think people you label as war criminals shouldn't be allowed to speak because they might say something that isn't politically correct. I suggest if you can't handle hearing the other side of the story, then don't go to speeches by people you disagree with.

I prefer to hear both sides of the story.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Sixstrings » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 12:55:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shar_Lamagne', 'T')he United States violated the Geneva Conventions. ... Bush is a war criminal just like Slobodan Milosovic, or the Nazis tried at Nuremberg.

As cozy as Australia is with China, maybe you should be more concerned about their human rights record.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Sixstrings » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 13:06:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', 'S')eriously? Does anyone have the right to full imunity no matter what they do just because they are the President?


They don't have legal immunity. That's why Nixon had to be pardoned. BUT.. obviously there's a lot of prosecutorial discretion about ever charging an ex president with crimes. No sitting president's justice department is going to do that, just not going to happen. If it's serious enough to come to that, then the old guy just gets a pardon. Not really saying this is right, just how it is.

And let's not forget that while Bush-Cheney went overboard and over-reacted to perceived threats (and nuclear terrorism IS still a threat), the fact remains that Bush is no Augusto Pinochet. It's apples and oranges.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') mean, as much as I hate to godwin a thread, imagine if a President really did take things that far, shouldn't people in power be held accountable for war crimes?


We're a constitutional republic, not a dictatorship. The bar may be set high, but if a president is ever grossly criminal then yes he'd be prosecuted. It's still a slippery slope though.. where do you draw the line between criminality and responding in good faith to a national emergency? We all know that when push comes to shove, laws will be bent to protect the nation from imminent attack.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's all well and good saying Congress should impeach him if neccessary, but what if the war crimes are not found out about until later on, I'm not sure that secrecy should absolve someone from punishment.


My opinion on this is hardly radical -- don't forget that Obama and the Democratic Congress didn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby vision-master » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 13:34:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '
')
Bush...Blair....war criminal ...jail...


You are welcome to your personal opinion, but please don't confuse your personal beliefs and political viewpoint with reality.

You obviously think people you label as war criminals shouldn't be allowed to speak because they might say something that isn't politically correct. I suggest if you can't handle hearing the other side of the story, then don't go to speeches by people you disagree with.

I prefer to hear both sides of the story.


Tell the Bush's to return Geronimo's skull.....

Geronimo's kin sue Skull and Bones
HARTFORD, Connecticut — Geronimo's descendants have sued Skull and Bones — the secret society at Yale University linked to presidents and other powerful figures — claiming that its members stole the remains of the legendary Apache leader decades ago and have kept them ever since.
Image

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29265600/ns/us_news-life/


Bush is Magog.
Image
There can be no doubt that President Bush knows exactly why he holds the satanic title of "Gog, of the land of Magog," also known as Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal. The "Leader of the West," as the Rabbis also put it, "shall be incarnated and possessed by Satan himself in the last days. The Scriptures say he, as Chief Prince, "shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (Revelation 20:7-8).

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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby AdTheNad » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 14:26:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')You are welcome to your personal opinion, but please don't confuse your personal beliefs and political viewpoint with reality.

You obviously think people you label as war criminals shouldn't be allowed to speak because they might say something that isn't politically correct. I suggest if you can't handle hearing the other side of the story, then don't go to speeches by people you disagree with.

I prefer to hear both sides of the story.


Please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say anything of the sort. I think Bush should be able to speak, and people should be able to protest against it. I think everyone should have the right to freedom of speech. I asked a simple question, because I am not American and don't know, whether or not freedom of speech is restricted from felons or convicted criminals. Do you or anyone else on here know?

Back up the thread, Shar_Lamagne has pointed out much better than I can, that it is a fact under the Geneva convention that Bush is a war criminal. Do you disagree with this? For that I believe he should go to jail, and that even by being in jail he would never be able to repay the world for the damage he has done. Now that one is an opinion, and one shared by anyone with a shread of human decency (another opinion).

Now, just as I would hope that if Pinochet or Mugabe were to hold a talk in public, people would be allowed to protest against them, and that they would also be arrested, I think the same fate should befall any war criminal.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')As cozy as Australia is with China, maybe you should be more concerned about their human rights record.


Strange argument, though more just a deflection really. I think we should be concerned with all human rights abuses, China's and America's, and people shouldn't get a free pass just because they were the president of USA. Not just go after the war criminals from countries that happen to have a lot of oil.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Plantagenet » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 16:30:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', ' ')I think Bush should be able to speak, and people should be able to protest against it. I think everyone should have the right to freedom of speech.


Oh, then we agree in theory.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', 'i')t is a fact under the Geneva convention that Bush is a war criminal.


Its a fact? Really? Its not just your opinion?

I wasn't aware that Bush was impeached or convicted at the Hague World Court. Would you please provide proof to back up your fact by posting a link to the trial where this verdict was delivered and Bush was convicted? What---no link to back up your "fact"? Don't worry...you've got a precedent in Lewis Carroll's Red Queen, who advocated 'PUNISHMENT first... Verdict afterwards!'
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Cid_Yama » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 16:54:39

The United States is bound by the Geneva Conventions which was ratified by Congress.

The Geneva Conventions are very specific and under Bush, International Law was violated.

Since Bush was President, and since his Administration actively attempted to circumvent international law, that makes him a War Criminal.

We don't need a trial to be able to see that the United States launched a War of Aggression. This is the same charge under which the Nazis at Nuremberg were tried.

There is ample evidence for extraodinary renditions and torture by the US.

Bush is a fugitive from justice, and if he leaves the country he will be arrested. Same with Cheney. Same for several Americans for whom international warrants have been issued.

These are facts. This isn't just something Democrats whipped up to make them look bad. These are actual International charges and actual violations of international law.

Violations not just of the law, but the most despicable crimes against humanity. These people are monsters that need to be brought to justice.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby AdTheNad » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 17:00:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')Its a fact? Really? Its not just your opinion?


You're pretty good at obfuscating my posts and deception. Lets try the whole sentence again and see if you can work out where you went wrong.

Shar_Lamagne has pointed out much better than I can, that it is a fact under the Geneva convention that Bush is a war criminal. Do you disagree with this?

I'm just going to post the list again, and see if you can answer if you disagree with any of the following?

They launched a War of Aggression.
They have violated the Sovereign border of another country to commit acts of war.
They engaged in abductions and extrajudicial transfer of persons from one nation to another for the purpose of torture by proxy.
They engaged in torture themselves.
They held prisoners without charge.
They held POW's without respecting the rights of POW's according to the Geneva Conventions.
That makes many in the United States guilty of War Crimes according to the Geneva Conventions.
This is a fact. Not open to interpretation.
The United States is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions and it was ratified by Congress. That makes it International Law to which the United States is subject to.

If you can't disagree with any, or even most of these assertions then it's a fact and not opinion.

But it seems you won't answer simple questions so I'm sure you will gloss over this again.

And just because something hasn't yet gone to court doesn't mean it can't be a fact, which is pretty obvious to most people, but lets use a simple example.

Person A kills person B. This is a fact whether it goes to court or not. That example was easier than I thought it would be.

Throughout history there are always people who have sided with war criminals, whether for power, money or just because they were evil as well. I'm sure you can find people who sided with pretty much all of them from Hitler to Milosevic and Pinochet. I wonder if when you were growing up you thought you would be one of them?
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Serial_Worrier » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 17:02:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'B')ush is a fugitive from justice, and if he leaves the country he will be arrested. Same with Cheney. Same for several Americans for whom international warrants have been issued.

These are facts. This isn't just something Democrats whipped up to make them look bad. These are actual International charges and actual violations of international law.

Violations not just of the law, but the most despicable crimes against humanity. These people are monsters that need to be brought to justice.


Delusional. These monsters are in your head.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Serial_Worrier » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 17:05:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', 'T')hroughout history there are always people who have sided with war criminals, whether for power, money or just because they were evil as well. I'm sure you can find people who sided with pretty much all of them from Hitler to Milosevic and Pinochet. I wonder if when you were growing up you thought you would be one of them?


You just accused the 55 million people who voted for Bush in 2004 of being evil. How easy and convenient to turn off your mind to the actual issues!
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Plantagenet » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 17:28:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', '
')it is a fact under the Geneva convention that Bush is a war criminal. Do you disagree with this?


I wanted the US Congress to impeach Bush to ascertain whether or not these charges are true. You are welcome to your opinion, but without an actual verdict your opinion is not the same thing as a "fact."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdTheNad', ' ')answer if you disagree with any of the following?


Your list of possible "war crimes" falls into two broad categories. One involves the war itself---was it legal or was the war somehow criminal? Given that Saddam was a genocidal killer who had murdered thousands of his own people using poison gas, a case can be made that the war was a war of liberation. A case can also be made that Saddam had breached the terms of the armistice after Gulf War I. The WMD rationale turned out to be mostly wrong, but the fact remains that Saddam did use WMD in his genocidal campaign against the Kurds and against the Iranian army in the Iraq-Iran war.

The war itself was legally and publicly declared by the US Congress and a multi-nation coalition of US allies joined in the war, including Great Britain. While Bush-haters like to gloss over these facts, a strong case can be made that the Saddam regime was a criminal, genocidal regime that needed to be deposed for the good of humanity, just as the Hitler regime or the Pol Pot regime needed to be deposed.

The second broad category of charges you raise is the treatment of the Al Qaida detainees. Again, after 9/11 (an attack directed against civilians which most definitely IS a war crime) the US legally declared war against Al Qaida. The captured Al Qaida detainees themselves were not POWs according to the Geneva Convention's own rules---they were instead unlawful combatants. The Bush administration actually granted them BETTER treatment then they were entitled to by treating them like POWs and interning them at GITMO. Under the Geneva rules they could've been tried as spies or saboteurs and executed soon after capture, as the US (and all the allied forces did) when they captured German unlawful combatants operating out of uniform after WWII ended.

Now that I've answered your questions, will you answer one for me?

Will you acknowledge the fact (AND its an actual FACT not an opinion like your claim) that there was real trial of Saddam in the real world, and Saddam was found guilty of crimes against humanity for his poison gas attack and other genocidal activities against the Kurds, and for his mass murders of the Shia in Southern Iraq and sentenced to death by hanging. For some reason Bush-haters mostly won't admit that Saddam never would have been deposed and put on trial and convicted of crimes against humanity and executed if not for victory by the US and allied forces in Iraq War II.
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Kurdish family murdered in poison gas attack ordered by Saddam Hussein
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Serial_Worrier » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 17:34:21

Does Bush really fear arrest in Switzerland? Probably not - but he didn't want the left-wing harassment.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Cid_Yama » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 17:46:24

The Bush Administration violated International Law. What the US Congress does or does not do (which by the way, you can't impeach someone who is no longer in office) has no bearing.

They are fugitives who have International charges against them, and will be arrested if they leave the country.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Serial_Worrier » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 17:54:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'T')he Bush Administration violated International Law. What the US Congress does or does not do (which by the way, you can't impeach someone who is no longer in office) has no bearing.

They are fugitives who have International charges against them, and will be arrested if they leave the country.


Didn't Saddam violate international law first? The world was obligated to remove him. in fact the EU absconded on it's moral duty to not allow genocide in places like Darfur - so no moral authority!
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Pretorian » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 18:54:41

What are those crimes against humanity? What does it even mean? Who made up that law and did Iraq ratified those laws or not?
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Cid_Yama » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 19:14:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Rome Statute Explanatory Memorandum states that crimes against humanity

are particularly odious offenses in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority. However, murder, extermination, torture, rape, political, racial, or religious persecution and other inhumane acts reach the threshold of crimes against humanity only if they are part of a widespread or systematic practice. Isolated inhumane acts of this nature may constitute grave infringements of human rights, or depending on the circumstances, war crimes, but may fall short of meriting the stigma attaching to the category of crimes under discussion. On the other hand, an individual may be guilty of crimes against humanity even if he perpetrates one or two of the offences mentioned above, or engages in one such offense against only a few civilians, provided those offenses are part of a consistent pattern of misbehavior by a number of persons linked to that offender (for example, because they engage in armed action on the same side or because they are parties to a common plan or for any similar reason.) Consequently when one or more individuals are not accused of planning or carrying out a policy of inhumanity, but simply of perpetrating specific atrocities or vicious acts, in order to determine whether the necessary threshold is met one should use the following test: one ought to look at these atrocities or acts in their context and verify whether they may be regarded as part of an overall policy or a consistent pattern of an inhumanity, or whether they instead constitute isolated or sporadic acts of cruelty and wickedness.

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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby eXpat » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 19:38:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'T')he Bush Administration violated International Law. What the US Congress does or does not do (which by the way, you can't impeach someone who is no longer in office) has no bearing.

They are fugitives who have International charges against them, and will be arrested if they leave the country.


Didn't Saddam violate international law first? The world was obligated to remove him. in fact the EU absconded on it's moral duty to not allow genocide in places like Darfur - so no moral authority!

C´mon, we are all grown ups here, and this is recent history, we still remember, not that rubbish again, nothing excuses the USA for invading a country under false pretenses, destroy their Infrastructure (remember "Shock and Awe"), torture their inhabitants (remember Abu Ghraib?),- who by the way are defending their country against a hostile invasion - and genocide their population (remember Fallujah?).
And if we talk about who made it first here is a reminder:

Image

And if you want to split hairs, the biggest crime attributed to Saddam Hussein was the gassing of Kurds in the village of Halabja (casualties aprox 5000), well, it has been calculated that even more Iraqis died during the fight for Fallujah.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby mos6507 » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 20:23:30

Iraq was bad, but we didn't conduct genocide. Genocide is one of those terms that gets trotted out by anyone who wants to demonize. War is hell, period.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby Sixstrings » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 20:34:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '[')b]Strange argument, though more just a deflection really. I think we should be concerned with all human rights abuses, China's and America's, and people shouldn't get a free pass just because they were the president of USA. Not just go after the war criminals from countries that happen to have a lot of oil.


I think it's a valid point. Where is your Swiss court of international justice for what the Chinese have done to Tibet, hm? Do you just not give a damn about Tibetans? Is the Iraq issue sexier, what?

Seriously, let's compare them. China launched a war of aggression on Tibet, and ANNEXED it to this day is flooding the region with so many Chinese settlers that native Tibetans are doomed to being wiped out for good. Whereas we did a regime change, and Iraq has democratic government and free elections. Big difference there.

In Tibet, the Chinese are systematically wiping out an ancient culture. It's cultural genocide, on top of the million plus Tibetans already killed by the Chinese.

So.. where's the Swiss arrest warrant for Hu Jintao? Are the Chinese just untouchable, they can keep right up with the cultural genocide in Tibet?

My point is that a lot of this European Bush-rage really comes down to anti-Americanism. Putin, Hu Jintao, and all the much worse scoundrel heads of state seem to get a free pass. How about trying them in Switzerland before getting around to George Bush.
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Re: Bush Cancels Switzerland Trip Due To Threat Of Arrest

Postby SeaGypsy » Tue 08 Feb 2011, 22:06:43

Pre-Chinese Tibet was no Shangri-La.
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