[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') guess my problem is the example of the Venus Project looks like a pyramid to me. Maybe it isn't. Maybe people really NEED maglev, cybernetic governance, cities under the sea, space stations, etc. I was not aware those were NEEDS. But I am often mistaken.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
') Local efforts aren't going to cut it

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', 'I') would add that I believe there is at least a certain degree of need for an aesthetically inspiring environment, something that 'raw nature' alone does not address...

[scas]

I'm already involved in permaculture and spreading the ideas to friends and family.

How can I get involved in shutting down the tarsands and coal fired plants? If we burn the coal and tarsands, then not only is extinction probable but a Venus syndrome becomes very likely.

And how can we raise awareness and support for the need for geoengineering? People shy away from the idea but short of a nuclear war or yellowstone eruption, Earth is going to cook.

How can we raise awareness for the need of 4th Gen. nuclear power? Coal powered cities will kill everyone. Nuclear-electric will not.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hat part of permaculture, specifically, does not address the long term?

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')What permaculture in its current incarnation does not address is the same thing that all non-technological solutions thus far do not address, namely the threat of scarcity. No matter how perfectly self-sustaining your edible forest is, it is still subject to the uncertainties of varying climate. One or two years of drought and you're dead. The application of technological enhancements to a permaculture base (which I believe The Venus Project exemplifies) are, IMO, the only way of mitigating that particular threat.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
') Local efforts aren't going to cut it

[Narz]

I can only hope to connect with a different type of society cause I'm so damn maladpated to this one.

If I'd spent the last 5-years not knowing about anything environmental or energy-related I'd certainly be healthier & happier. But in the long run I'd be worse off. This is of course assuming I can find a "life boat" of some kind.

And frankly, I think a technocopian lifeboat would be a helluvalot more fun than squatting in huts digging for grubs all day. Why not strive for the interconnectedness of primitive people WITH the innovation & safety that comes from technology?

If I'm still a lost soul next winter & can scrap together the money maybe I'll visit Venus, Florida & see if these preachy Zeitgeisters are actually doing anything practical or just churning out films.

In the end though I'll probably have to form my own subculture/transitiontown/ecovillage cause everyone else's ideology (who's founded any movement/community/etc.) is always full of some sort of silliness or another ("spirituality", primitivism, free-market as God, anti-all currency, hardcore socialist, etc.). Can't anyone start a community based on simple survival during the difficult period ahead by whatever means necessary without all the goobledegook?

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hat part of permaculture, specifically, does not address the long term?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')What permaculture in its current incarnation does not address is the same thing that all non-technological solutions thus far do not address, namely the threat of scarcity. No matter how perfectly self-sustaining your edible forest is, it is still subject to the uncertainties of varying climate. One or two years of drought and you're dead.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Technological "fixes" are much more realistic than everyone turning to permaculture tomorrow and technological fixes are the only thing that can't prevent absolute disaster.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('scas', '
')How can I get involved in shutting down the tarsands and coal fired plants?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')I think even if you support technofix in the form of solar panels and PassvHaus retrofits, you've also got to factor in the economy.

[mos6507]

Narz, try not to let your emotions carry you away too much. There's some vigorous debate here, but this is one of the most substantive threads this site has had in many months.

[Ludi]

Well, I got all upset and stormed off. It's hard not to get emotionally involved in this stuff.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Technological "fixes" are much more realistic than everyone turning to permaculture tomorrow and technological fixes are the only thing that can't prevent absolute disaster.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Well, the only true "techno-fix" I could see "saving" us (from the worst of... well everything we're created for ourselves) is artificial intelligence.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'A') : it's never going to appeal to 99.99% of the population (who simply don't have the time, sensitivity or inclination to act even if they might care) & B : For most people, most of the time, motivation is the main issue. People might think your garden, efficient use of space & riding a recumbant bike to work is cute but they're not going to get involved or emulate you unless put under pressure.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Well, the only true "techno-fix" I could see "saving" us (from the worst of... well everything we're created for ourselves) is artificial intelligence.

[Narz]

Nicely put TWilliam. It doesn't help that certain people (though not most permaculture students who I met in RL) are so anti-technology that any suggestion of using advanced technology draws disdain.