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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Dezakin » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 14:46:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I')nteresting to see Dezakin posting again. I remember his name mostly from a debate in which he professed his loving support for an intergalactic manifest destiny in which we wring the life out of earth and leave it as a dead husk as we head warp-speed out the stars (presumably just us and the few select genomes we deem useful for food, companionship, and scenery).

I think that's coloring my opinions a bit much. I expect machines we build will tear apart the planet for raw material after we develop AI, and that process will continue outward. Loving support implies a far more normative value than I'm comfortable with.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby ian807 » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 14:49:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')
You're invoking the second incompleteness theorem, but really you're just tossing around mathematics without actually knowing what it means. The incompleteness theorems relate to the existence of undecidable statements, not to the discussion at hand.


I don't know what discussion you refer too, I do know when I do maths and I do know when I do something else, and I have indeed read and understood the second incompleteness theorem, that's about it (it is you who mix everything when you try to relate that to a mundane perception of truth and logic and a non mathematical exchange). And more importantly, people like Rimbaud or Nietzsche help me bear with the disgusting vulgar peasantry of what you seem to consider philosophy or litterature to be.
I don't care about convincing anybody, just reminding that the trashy mindset isn't obligatory in these domains, that is all, somebody could remember or be interested in that, and in any case, time will indeed tell that I am right, and only time can, so why bother ?


Translation: I'm good at philosophy, but can't do math or program a computer. Added note. I guessing your age at 20-21, in university.

No worries. We vulgar peasant engineer types will just have to tarry on in our ignorance, however, I'd like to point out that you are going to be living in our world of computers, internet, smart phones and gradually developing AI for the rest of your life, like it or not. I suggest you get used to it.

Cheers!
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Arthur75 » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 14:56:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ian807', '
')
No worries. We vulgar peasant engineer types will just have to tarry on in our ignorance, however, I'd like to point out that you are going to be living in our world of computers, internet, smart phones and gradually developing AI for the rest of your life, like it or not. I suggest you get used to it.

Cheers!


lol, I did Maths to a level where you most probably never cruised around, I'm also an engineer (graduated as such), did write quite a bit of code and still do, as well as having graduated already a few years ago. But I understand that you are totally incapable of considering what technology is, you are not the only one, don't worry. This geeky techno romanticism is kinda cute, but indeed terribly retarded and vulgar.
Last edited by Arthur75 on Sun 02 Jan 2011, 15:00:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Dezakin » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 15:00:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')
You're invoking the second incompleteness theorem, but really you're just tossing around mathematics without actually knowing what it means. The incompleteness theorems relate to the existence of undecidable statements, not to the discussion at hand.


I don't know what discussion you refer too, I do know when I do maths and I do know when I do something else, and I have indeed read and understood the second incompleteness theorem, that's about it (it is you who mix everything when you try to relate that to a mundane perception of truth and logic and a non mathematical exchange). And more importantly, people like Rimbaud, Nietzsche or Mallarmé help me bear with the disgusting vulgar peasantry of what you seem to consider philosophy or litterature to be.

Do you care to actually think about that for a second? You're the one that brought up Gödel. And why are you bringing up pop philosophy that has nothing to do with mathematics? Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?

The scope of the incompleteness theorems is much more narrow than people often believe it to be. It applies to the undecidability of formal systems that can express Peano arithmetic, specifically it states that undecidable statements exist in any consistent theory that are capable of expressing Peano arithmetic. It doesn't say anything reaching beyond the existence of undecidability. Are you suggesting that it does?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', 'I') don't care about convincing anybody, just reminding that the trashy mindset isn't obligatory in these domains, that is all, somebody could remember or be interested in that, and in any case, time will indeed tell that I am right, and only time can, so why bother ?

Then perhaps you should have reflected on that thought before hitting the submit button.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Arthur75 » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 15:08:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'A')nd why are you bringing up pop philosophy that has nothing to do with mathematics? Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?



Don't know what pop philosophy is, sorry, moreover not terribly interested in continuing this discussion, only time will tell and maybe in 15 years you will reconsider, if you are still here ...
In the end you people are terribly sad, heavy, and boring (besides being 100% wrong, of course)
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Dezakin » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 15:21:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'A')nd why are you bringing up pop philosophy that has nothing to do with mathematics? Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?



Don't know what pop philosophy is, sorry, moreover not terribly interested in continuing this discussion, only time will tell and maybe in 15 years you will reconsider, if you are still here ...
In the end you people are terribly sad, heavy, and boring (besides being 100% wrong, of course)

Uh... what? So you didn't want to discuss the incompleteness theorem? I thought you said I was wrong? You seem to be so certain, perhaps you could tell me where I'm wrong before you run away with all your lovely (heavy?) adjectives.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Arthur75 » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 15:31:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')Uh... what? So you didn't want to discuss the incompleteness theorem? I thought you said I was wrong? You seem to be so certain, perhaps you could tell me where I'm wrong before you run away with all your lovely (heavy?) adjectives.


What technology is doing is writing a huge book, nothing more, nothing less, consider all the machines stopped and the book it represents, then consider only the evolution of it through new machines and versions, that is all there is to see, it is what matters today, and what will matter even more tomorow, together with the ability to make it move (to modify it), any talented engineer knows it, and doesn't care about the AI "losers dream", nobody with talent and ideas cares about that, AI is just the losers corner, you better realize that, buddy.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 15:56:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', 'I')n the end you people are terribly sad, heavy, and boring (besides being 100% wrong, of course)


The original subject was the observation that there are two fairly well-known groups who are each preparing, in possibly radical ways, for a rather doomish-looking future.

You've got the Limits To Growth crowd, amongst which peak-oilers find sympthasizers. And you have the Singularitarians, a group which is looking at the rapid advance of science and technology. Kurzweil's predictions, based on LOAR, are accurate - 86%.

Both groups use trend-plotting techniques and other key observations to make claims about the future. Each groups' analysis of civilization's future appears to be diametrically opposed to the other.

Of course, the predictable response would be that those idiots on the other side are delusional, sensationalist and cannot be given any credibility. Such a statement puts the paradox to bed nicely for a mind that doesn't want to work too hard - someone who likes to read James Howard Kunstler, for example, very dismissive and contemptuous of "techno-utopianism", but who refuses to acknowledge or discuss in any clear-headed way the strong advance of science, the huge scientific research studies being conducted on and off the planet, incredible new projects being planned, etc.

For more inquiring minds, the fact that opposite futures are predicted by ASPO and The Singularity Institute is interesting because there are so many people who would place themselves in one of these two camps and there are plenty of people (like me) who are acquainted with both these subjects.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Arthur75 » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 16:09:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')For more inquiring minds,


lol, sure, like 911 "truthers" right ? Typically the same thing as for AI fans : people not knowing anything about structural engineering making grand declarations about the effect of jet aircrafts full of kerozene crashing into buildings, and asking for the audience "common sense" and "open mindness" support ...

(funny the avatar of yours by the way Carlhole, nice humoristic "touch" :roll: )
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 16:19:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')For more inquiring minds,


lol, sure, like 911 "truthers" right ? Typically the same thing as for AI fans : people not knowing anything about structural engineering making grand declarations about the effect of jet aircrafts full of kerozene crashing into buildings, and asking for the audience "common sense" and "open mindness" support ...

(funny the avatar of yours by the way Carlhole, nice humoristic "touch" :roll: )


Nice to see you desperately thrashing around like that.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Dezakin » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 16:35:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')Uh... what? So you didn't want to discuss the incompleteness theorem? I thought you said I was wrong? You seem to be so certain, perhaps you could tell me where I'm wrong before you run away with all your lovely (heavy?) adjectives.


What technology is doing is writing a huge book, nothing more, nothing less, consider all the machines stopped and the book it represents, then consider only the evolution of it through new machines and versions, that is all there is to see, it is what matters today, and what will matter even more tomorow, together with the ability to make it move (to modify it), any talented engineer knows it, and doesn't care about the AI "losers dream", nobody with talent and ideas cares about that, AI is just the losers corner, you better realize that, buddy.

You're engaging in sophomoric ad-hominems and dodging my points. You brought up the incompleteness theorem and then never went anywhere with it. Then you claimed I was wrong without saying what I was wrong about, and now you're claiming I'm wrong about AI, when I barely even touched on the subject with you.

My only point of discussion with you was that Gödellian arguments against mechanism simply misunderstand the incompleteness theorems. I'm asking you to either retract the statement or expand on it, and apparently you're too proud to retract it and too ignorant to expand on it.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Arthur75 » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 16:43:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')My only point of discussion with you was that Gödellian arguments against mechanism simply misunderstand the incompleteness theorems. I'm asking you to either retract the statement or expand on it, and apparently you're too proud to retract it and too ignorant to expand on it.


Indeed you are right, I'm not interested in expanding on it and I know or remember where the frontier is, but indeed the belief that thinking can be brought down to a mechanism or "processes" is false "je ne cherche pas, je trouve" "I don't search, I find" Picasso was saying, now whether this is related to the incompleteness theorem or not is debatable (but not so much considering that the theorem was the result of human thinking), and in any case doesn't change the initial fact.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 17:09:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '.')..the belief that thinking can be brought down to a mechanism or "processes" is false.


You could make a lot of money if you could show that to be true. The chip design or robotics industries, or supercomputing fields haven't reached any such conclusion. They're all making huge bets in precisely the opposite direction.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Dezakin » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 17:19:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')You've got the Limits To Growth crowd, amongst which peak-oilers find sympthasizers. And you have the Singularitarians, a group which is looking at the rapid advance of science and technology. Kurzweil's predictions, based on LOAR, are accurate - 86%.

I think both sides are extreme in extrapolating world reaching implications in the short term from rather narrow examples. Kurzweil's predictions for instance are right in the broadest possible sense, but looking at how they're right reveals far less short term impact than is implied:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/soft ... y-futurism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction ... y_Kurzweil

They are often right, but not to the extent implied. They ignore things like recessions, wars, and other economic upheaval that slows progress. And his predictions are often silly, for example:

2014 * Automatic house cleaning robots will have become common.

What does he mean by common? What sort of house cleaning robots? We could say that the Roomba somewhat counts as common and somewhat counts as an automatic housecleaning robot. By 2014 you could claim to be right, or 5 years ago you could claim to be right, but these aren't really changing roles in society so much as operating as toys.

What I would suggest is he's jumping the gun on so many technologies, and ignoring the requisite extra engineering cycles to make a technology from demonstrated to integrated. In twenty years we will probably have a fully simulated human scale brain, but it will take another decade or two to have it actually be able to think like one. I'm sure it will have an impact, but probably the first impact will be development of drugs rather than AI.

In energy depletion you run into the other extreme completely ignoring the role technology has to play and exaggerating Malthusian arguments. I think both sides are wrong in the short run, and (somewhat) right in the (very) long run. What that gives us is a future with lots of technological advances, and lots of economic upheaval from energy depletion, but nothing like the robot or zombie apocalypse or utopia that either side is projecting in the next thirty years.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Arthur75 » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 17:23:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'T')hey're all making huge bets in precisely the opposite direction.


Not really, no, they have great engineers creating chips or writing algorithms that fullfil computing or signal processing needs, plainly sufficient for money making, and they don't care that much about AI bozos (except maybe for PR matters towards Carlhole types), AI bozos being perfectly happy playing around with x86 chips in their corner anyway, so doesn't matter much ...
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Dezakin » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 17:28:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')My only point of discussion with you was that Gödellian arguments against mechanism simply misunderstand the incompleteness theorems. I'm asking you to either retract the statement or expand on it, and apparently you're too proud to retract it and too ignorant to expand on it.


Indeed you are right, I'm not interested in expanding on it and I know or remember where the frontier is, but indeed the belief that thinking can be brought down to a mechanism or "processes" is false

What have you got against the period and semicolon anyways?

Why do you believe that intelligence is inherently unmechanistic? That goes against everything we've discovered in neuroscience, and belongs firmly in the camp of religion. Exactly how do you imagine intelligence works then? Do you believe that the brain is just an organ to cool the blood?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '&')quot;je ne cherche pas, je trouve" "I don't search, I find" Picasso was saying, now whether this is related to the incompleteness theorem or not is debatable (but not so much considering that the theorem was the result of human thinking), and in any case doesn't change the initial fact.


Do you even read what you write before you hit submit? What 'initial fact?' If you're uncertain as to weather or not the incompleteness theorems relate to mechanism, why even bring it up?

The more you continue, the more it appears you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Arthur75 » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 17:30:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')The more you continue, the more it appears you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.


Lol, you're funny :) (but a bit too much of an illiterate puritan peasant, that's true)
And before you invoke "ad hominems" as a "very bad thing", I kinda like it sometimes, so don't bother
As I said in my first message on this thread there is nothing to prove here, so you just have to admit that I am right, not that much really !
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Dezakin » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 18:14:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')The more you continue, the more it appears you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.


Lol, you're funny :) (but a bit too much of an illiterate puritan peasant, that's true)
And before you invoke "ad hominems" as a "very bad thing", I kinda like it sometimes, so don't bother

Not so much a very bad thing as completely irrelevant. But if you must indulge, one might imagine you would pick something a bit more logically consistent than "illiterate" in an written discussion.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s I said in my first message on this thread there is nothing to prove here, so you just have to admit that I am right, not that much really !

Oh look, I've been trolled. You're a pretender. You don't understand mechanism, mathematics, or intelligence; Or apparently grammar. If you did, you could actually make an argument against mechanism and tie in mathematical arguments. You'd still be wrong.

You aren't even wrong, you're not making any argument at all.
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Arthur75 » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 18:24:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')
You aren't even wrong, you're not making any argument at all.


I'm writing text, trying to counter the disgusting sadness and degenerate self hate that people like you naively believe in and are embodying, true, not much more in this context (but not the only thing I'm doing), did you ever think about what a word or even a symbol, sign or letter is ?
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Re: Whole Brain Emulation and the Evolution of Superorganism

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 02 Jan 2011, 18:27:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Abstract
Many scientists expect the eventual development of intelligent software ... We argue that the increased capacities and internal coordination of such
superorganisms could pose increased risks of overriding human values, but also could facilitate the solution of global coordination problems.


If you want to read some really wonderful science fiction AND ponder some ideas to help get your head around this kind of thing, IMO Charles Stross is just the ticket. His "Accelerando", which explores just this scenario with a lot of specificity and a gripping story, is where to start.

"Economics 2.0" - where people can no longer compete in trading or really the economy in general, due to the AI's, is one interesting idea. Sending AI's that emulate top human scientists on long term space missions to other stars, instead of sending the "meat" scientists is another (Imagine a spaceship with a payload the size/mass of a jump drive -- quite an innovative concept. Plus, software doesn't mind long wait times unlike meat organisms).

Cheers.


It's at my library. Thanks!
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