[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'O')ne of the key metaphysical reasons the greater systems must fail is to preserve human moral ethos.
If globalism is to continue right through to implementation of the NWO to the fullest; population controls are mandatory. As China has shown, the semi brutal approach only half works.
The alternative is the breakdown of more complex systems allowing accelerated population demise without manifest evil being a prime motivator. A NWO decision that 500 million is about right so let's pick our friends and wipe everyone else is not a world I want to live in and honestly is unworthy of the genome. Even if they are correct in terms of carrying capacity they cannot morally be right in how they decide which apect of the population will be reduced. Nature shall be the arbiter in this matter not some self inmportant bloated stickocracy.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Here is something to ponder. Manifest evil works in mysterious ways. You see, doing nothing and allowing nature to be the arbiter is actually not as passive as it looks. The decision to do nothing is an action and thus the exponential growth and exponential suffering that results is something that already makes us culpable. In other words we really have been the designers from the start but also designers in the decision to not tackle this moral dilemma and let nature be the arbiter. We can't play ignorant on this point. By washing our hands of this moral dilemma and saying the only way to preserve the human moral ethos is to let nature be the arbiter is actually an active position in and of itself. So no free pass here.

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Here is something to ponder. Manifest evil works in mysterious ways. You see, doing nothing and allowing nature to be the arbiter is actually not as passive as it looks. The decision to do nothing is an action and thus the exponential growth and exponential suffering that results is something that already makes us culpable. In other words we really have been the designers from the start but also designers in the decision to not tackle this moral dilemma and let nature be the arbiter. We can't play ignorant on this point. By washing our hands of this moral dilemma and saying the only way to preserve the human moral ethos is to let nature be the arbiter is actually an active position in and of itself. So no free pass here.

[Arthur75]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', ' ')and sheer laziness.

[Oakley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Here is something to ponder. Manifest evil works in mysterious ways. You see, doing nothing and allowing nature to be the arbiter is actually not as passive as it looks. The decision to do nothing is an action and thus the exponential growth and exponential suffering that results is something that already makes us culpable. In other words we really have been the designers from the start but also designers in the decision to not tackle this moral dilemma and let nature be the arbiter. We can't play ignorant on this point. By washing our hands of this moral dilemma and saying the only way to preserve the human moral ethos is to let nature be the arbiter is actually an active position in and of itself. So no free pass here.

[SeaGypsy]

I think that may be a reasonable assessment in the early stages of real system failure; but it ignores the fact that humans have always achieved survival in some kind of group. This panic stage and the way people react to it says more about how messed up our social structures have become than it does about human nature. For instance, will it mean a lick that you are able to defend your well stocked doomstead for a time, only to become increasingly a target by doing so? No nuclear family can adequately defend itself in a hyper vigilant mode for more than a few days. To run a 24 hour gaurd shift requires a rotating fully alert team and adequate back up on instant notice. To grow a garden requires a lot of hard work and when your life depends on it you don't rely on fences.

I am of the sociological ideal based on anthropological studies in remote aboriginal communities, that says there is a fairly narrow band of numbers in a sustainable human collective; when 'oil magic' is taken out of the equation. If your collective is too small it will fracture and split, whether to die off or join larger groups. If your collective is too large, communication and order will be fractious and the key survival skill of being able to respond spontaneously to immediate problems is lost.

My studies being based on the most sustainable human societies in the world, in central and nothern Australia, suggest the 'right' basic collective size is between 70 and 90 people. On the human scale this is enough muscle to get a lot done in good time, but not so much brain as to be bogged down endlessly in decision making processes. If it comes to a fight you have a bit of a force, but you can go guerilla and dissappear into the surrounds in a few moments if necessary.

Psychologicly, I have very strong doubts about our ability to cope with empathy on a grand scale.
The way we have all been drawn into awareness of the sufferings of complete strangers all over the world, coupled with the endless guilt by association of being 'priveleged', is not good for our mental health. Nor is the coupling of this vague disempowering general empathy with only passionately caring about ones immediate kin an ideal state of mind conducive to positive manifestations of endeavour.

I believe we need to extricate ourselves from this uncomfortable non functional mode of existence.
We need to make a real effort at building our own community up and setting real achievable goals.
We need to escape futile guilt and take responsibility for what we can actually do.
The endless blah blah about fixing the system is a tiring waste of precious time.
Start a community garden project, a coparenting school, a land purchase fund collective, any kind of eco biz. Do something cool. It's not too late. Talk to your neighbours. The first stage of loving them.

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Here is something to ponder. Manifest evil works in mysterious ways. You see, doing nothing and allowing nature to be the arbiter is actually not as passive as it looks. The decision to do nothing is an action and thus the exponential growth and exponential suffering that results is something that already makes us culpable. In other words we really have been the designers from the start but also designers in the decision to not tackle this moral dilemma and let nature be the arbiter. We can't play ignorant on this point. By washing our hands of this moral dilemma and saying the only way to preserve the human moral ethos is to let nature be the arbiter is actually an active position in and of itself. So no free pass here.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '
')where do i stand on the problem of the disadvantaged and dispossessed with respect to food, or anything else for that matter? squarely on the principle of redistribution of wealth, food & etc.

[SeaGypsy]

I grew up on Gunnamatta beach, where hundreds of people have drowned since European settlement in Australia. I have hands on saved dozens of lives. I am no braggart, I mention this in context.
It is a straw man argument to utilise samaritan laws as an example of political correctness gone wild; when this is in fact completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.

If you can't be bothered using a cellphone in your pocket to report an act of serious violence going on in front of you, you are an asshole and a wimp; no criminal sanction required.

On the other hand if you are going to make endless excuses about the misery and hopelessness of the world then basicly act out of unadulterated self interest; you are a wimp and an asshole.

[paimei01]

http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2011/01/la ... eagle.html

http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2010/10/if ... p-you.html

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '
')It is likely we will find firsthand that benevolence is a function of abundance and without excess, we will have a very limited circle of people with whom we can justify sharing. The thin veneer of civilization is dependent on basic needs being met and when our own lives come into question empathy will be a suppressed emotion.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Please avoid posting such mean words

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')Psychologicly, I have very strong doubts about our ability to cope with empathy on a grand scale.
The way we have all been drawn into awareness of the sufferings of complete strangers all over the world, coupled with the endless guilt by association of being 'priveleged', is not good for our mental health. Nor is the coupling of this vague disempowering general empathy with only passionately caring about ones immediate kin an ideal state of mind conducive to positive manifestations of endeavour.

I believe we need to extricate ourselves from this uncomfortable non functional mode of existence.
We need to make a real effort at building our own community up and setting real achievable goals.
We need to escape futile guilt and take responsibility for what we can actually do.
The endless blah blah about fixing the system is a tiring waste of precious time.
Start a community garden project, a coparenting school, a land purchase fund collective, any kind of eco biz. Do something cool. It's not too late. Talk to your neighbours. The first stage of loving them.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')It is too simplistic and really just a fairy tale narrative to see the outcome of human overshoot as a collapse of urban civilization, nation states and no longer any governance beyond a tribal group of 70-500 people. It wont happen. JMHO.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')Current style of urban life is surely going to be gone but some form of urban life will prevail.
I would look on Soweto or other slumps for a hint, how this future urban life might look like.
That in addition to very few armed to teeth rich enclaves here and there.
These will basically carry on enjoying something resembling current life standards and become power/governance centers.

[SeaGypsy]

Yes Ibon, I do 'get' that romantic notion can easily be demotivating; I think you understood that from your response, nothing wrong with spelling it out. My point is more about using that ancient tribal model as a resonance point, not to revert back in lifestyle, but to give scale and scope to a psychologicly healthy involvement with other humans.

When I see all the crap on TV or MSM about all the pathetic worries of Hollywood millionaires, it makes me want to scream: "Who f%$@ well cares about those idiots?". It took me a long while to realise these people are part of the game of playing up to our need for 'tribe'. In our own pathetic little nuclear families, we can focus on the woes of the ultra rich, engendering a feeling of incompleteness which resonates strongly with "Buy Buy Buy!!!". On the other hand we are shown very little of what really goes on in the horror of the world. Starving babies and raped children with their limbs hacked off are not good mealtime viewing. No use scaring the cattle, it makes them less productive.

I hope you are right that a harmonic is possible whereby we recognise our own best interests are served when we work in tribal scaled collectives, whilst maintaining open networks and greater societies.
I don't feel it is necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater; but I do feel a radical shift in our conciousness is necessary to have any chance of getting through the next few decades at all in any kind of group. Resignation to failure of society creates disease in neo tribal collectives. Anyone who has lived an an intentional community knows there are always the end is nigh crowd, They tend to be the ones claiming social security and producing almost nothing. It takes a lot of time and energy to keep focus on the death of your source of sustenance.

It's a fine line, that's the truth. But the answer is not going to be found sitting at a computer in suburbia doing a job you hate, feeding off yet being repulsed by the MSM.
The answers are to be found in action, independent thought and contemplation, peace of mind and the collective and working together with people we know and respect to get real stuff happening.

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')It is too simplistic and really just a fairy tale narrative to see the outcome of human overshoot as a collapse of urban civilization, nation states and no longer any governance beyond a tribal group of 70-500 people. It wont happen. JMHO.

[mos6507]

Children of Men did a good job of describing a dystopia in which people go insane because they lose hope in the future. What it didn't do is explain the underlying cause of doom. It actually had it backwards, which was the sterilization of humanity rather than population overshoot. The core problem of Children of Men would be the closest we have to a solution to overshoot rather than a cause of doom. In fact it's depressing to consider the notion that if we actually did have a complete falloff in fertility that people would respond not with relief that ecosystem pressures were receding, but to flip out and start shooting each other up.

There is actually a lot of doomy talk about industrial nations like Russia and Japan losing population and (Japan at least) winding up with an elderly-centric population. The socio-economic need (or perceived need) to have a younger generation to "take care of" the older generation is a lesser-talked-about factor in population overshoot. What it does is enforce a floor beyond which society doesn't want population to drop under, due to selfish concerns about "who will take care of me when I'm old".

[SeaGypsy]

If you are in from the USA, Austraila, anywhere in north West Europe, it will most likely be institutionalised care unless your family have some old fashioned scruples about that idea. Regardless how many children you have. My mother told all her children not to even consider looking after her when she loses it. She wants to be institutionalised. Living in 3rd world Asia is completely different. If you do nothing for your olds they will end up begging on the street and you will cop the blame. Amazingly this does happen. There is a 92 year old lady here who lives in the bus stop in the middle of town, her children are in the USA. For $100 a month they could keep her fed and in accomodation.
That is the influence of westernisation.
Strangely enough this old lady is happier than most of the hundreds of old people I have nursed with hundreds of dollars a day spent on their care. People feed her, some take her home and shower her, give her fresh clothes. She has effectively been adopted by the town.
My mother in law has a room in my house and is 90% dependent on my wife and me for an income. But she is fantastic around the house and with our daughter, we never have to pay for day care or baby sitting, we go out whenever we like, we can still travel.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')I hope you are right that a harmonic is possible whereby we recognise our own best interests are served when we work in tribal scaled collectives, whilst maintaining open networks and greater societies.