[SeaGypsy]

The paradox is that the libertarian is benefitted by the existence of the state.
Humans have not socially evolved to such a degree that widespread libertarianism would work in it's own favour. I know Ibon is well aware of this; the fact it is not to the advantage of the libertarian that society at large is going to fail. That's where generalists tend to get confused. If Libertarianism is Enlightenment, why shouldn't everyone have it? To which the libertarian answer is of course: You can have it, but you have to really want it. Whether you have it or not is of no consequence to me, and the fact is most people don't want liberty. They need a nanny state to maintain not just their food source but their concept of being who they are. I'm a Repugnicrat! God Bless the Repubnikcratocracy!
Really are the 'Public' on the verge of 'Waking Up'? No Freaking Way Known, You Have To Be Joking It Will Never Happen. Meaning that Libertarianism will never be other than a fringe movement on the edge of the mainstream. However, when the mainstream fails, the libertarian is likely to have positioned his/her self in such a way as to be able to continue life without abandoning everything currently underwy.

[Serial_Worrier]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', '
')Free market capitalism does not require big nanny state government!

[Serial_Worrier]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')he paradox is that the libertarian is benefitted by the existence of the state.
Humans have not socially evolved to such a degree that widespread libertarianism would work in it's own favour. I know Ibon is well aware of this; the fact it is not to the advantage of the libertarian that society at large is going to fail. That's where generalists tend to get confused. If Libertarianism is Enlightenment, why shouldn't everyone have it? To which the libertarian answer is of course: You can have it, but you have to really want it. Whether you have it or not is of no consequence to me, and the fact is most people don't want liberty. They need a nanny state to maintain not just their food source but their concept of being who they are. I'm a Repugnicrat! God Bless the Repubnikcratocracy!
Really are the 'Public' on the verge of 'Waking Up'? No Freaking Way Known, You Have To Be Joking It Will Never Happen. Meaning that Libertarianism will never be other than a fringe movement on the edge of the mainstream. However, when the mainstream fails, the libertarian is likely to have positioned his/her self in such a way as to be able to continue life without abandoning everything currently underwy.

[SeaGypsy]

I never equated the terms, in fact this will be the first time I use the word 'anarchy' in over 2000 posts.
I am also neither leftist or rightist.
I am anti statist and I believe statism is incompatible with libertarianism when you really get down to it.
Anarchy is an immature concept for immature minds. Libertarianism is a matured perspective on a jaded world, not an alternative system of government. I take no interest in lobbying for a change in politics, because I know who is pulling the strings and it's not politicians. Politicians just use the term jargonisticly aiming at people who think libertarianism sounds cool but haven't got a clue what it is. Bankers and security agencies on the other hand, do understand the threat; hence ever tightening identity requirements and technology. I think loudly advocating for truly libertarian governance would be a fast track to a hit list.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', ' ')You know, sacred demise. However, the human part of me, the compassionate part of me, can not hold onto this perspective for that long. The trick is to find some middle-path that allows one to have empathy both for the ecosystem and for your fellow man.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')downloading from the digital machine. It is lonely and dark.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', ' ')Why resent someone for seeing what you see but resigning themselves to accepting they aren't going to change the trajectory of the world so why not change their own? What is wrong with someone wanting to see off TEOTWAWKI from a rainforest vista or a cave in the mountains or a handcarved boat on the ocean or a deserted island? Who cares? What difference does it really make? Aren't you really just expressing frustration at your own impotence?

[SeaGypsy]

That could be true or a placatory over-simplification.

Ideology, philosophy and ethics are the 1st luxury of human endeavour, our primary expression of being what we are. While there may be no winning ideologies, it is our duty to ourselves to maintain the luxury of our own free thought.

If someone honestly philosophicly believes the best thing for them to do is just keep on living and muddling along, being as good a person as they can be, why should I have a problem with that? Even less someone taking such a position in full awareness of the dire position humanity is in.

That's not it though.

Ideologies can generate congeniality to such a point as to motivate the ultimate sacrifice (death for the good of others) or bickering to the extent of dropping bombs on cities. This fact alone makes them fairly important. Altruism and war are both based on ideology. Whether one survives a war to get a chance to be altruistic may come down to ones ideology, for instance. Whether you and your neighbours get together and do something really cool or don't even know each other will be an expression of your ideology.

The question of ideology is not one to be resolved but one to see evolve. Philiosophies, ideologies, religions and ideas stagnate if not tested and applied then continually allowed to evolve.

A personal ideology firmly held by someone deeply frustrated with their life seems idiosyncratic, an auto reaction between deep programming and conflicting circumstances resulting in a non-cohesive, incomplete, impractical, severely restrictive position.

Ideological thought is both a discipline and an art. Application of ideology to living is both a science and a lot of hard work.

It is the most common of crimes against the self to accept a proscribed ideology, philosophy, religion or system of thought designed specificly to thwart the individual.

It is also the ordinary reaction of prisoners to those outside the bars to call out "You are really a prisoner too!"

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')Ideologies can generate congeniality to such a point as to motivate the ultimate sacrifice (death for the good of others) or bickering to the extent of dropping bombs on cities. This fact alone makes them fairly important. Altruism and war are both based on ideology. Whether one survives a war to get a chance to be altruistic may come down to ones ideology, for instance. Whether you and your neighbours get together and do something really cool or don't even know each other will be an expression of your ideology.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'M')ore extremes from the norm.

[IsThisRealLife]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')he pendulum has swung about as far as possible in this direction of hyper individualism...

[mos6507]

I found Sharon Astyk's most recent blog post to be highly relevant to the debate about whether to "give up" and live for the moment or to continue to engage in some form of activism. She's actually in a more idealistic mood than I am, but overall I agree with her sentiments.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '[')url=http://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2010/12/what_does_it_matter.php]I found Sharon Astyk's most recent blog post[/url] to be highly relevant to the debate about whether to "give up" and live for the moment or to continue to engage in some form of activism. She's actually in a more idealistic mood than I am, but overall I agree with her sentiments.

[IsThisRealLife]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I') really like [Astyk's] explanation of how we sacrificed traditions and our grand children's resources with this cult of the "now" and prioritization of the present.

[Arthur75]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')

This kind of reminds me of the psychological profile of the average North Korean. South Koreans realize that North Koreans just don't think the way they do. If you've grown up from birth to believe certain things, they get hardwired into your brain. They can starve eating mud cakes and cockroaches and they'll still worship the ground that Kim Jong Il walks on and demonize SK even though SK is a far more successful model of life. It's very hard to deprogram because your whole identity is defined by your childhood. So when south korean and north korean relatives meet, it's very awkward because the North Koreans are so deluded that they can't accept any information that conflicts with their programming.

[SeaGypsy]

There is knowing, there is speaking, there is listening and there is doing. Then there are confusion, pressure to be quiet, innate deafness to conflicting information and sheer laziness. There is a heck of a lot more talking than doing. Like the deck boy and the cook and the engineer pointing at the iceberg straight up ahead but the captain and vice captain are so busy proving they know more, they refuse to turn the ship.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')her sobering essay is downright depressing and hardly idealistic

[SeaGypsy]

Mos your refusal to address me directly since our head butt over authenticity issues aroundd the moon landing propoganda gives me the shits a bit. Especially considering that most of the time I find your contributions here worthwhile and I don't hold back from complimenting your work here; even if I knock you from time to time.

I think you are a subverted radical. Really a wimp.

You will not got off your ass and break the paradigm you are so grossly enslaved by.

You claim to know 'exactly what is really going on' and sometimes I'm convinced you really do.

But I know you are really weak. You refuse to look realisticly ar 9/11 or the moon hoax evidence or the fact that your collosus is not interested in your salvation. Anything that brings up any kind of doubt about the ethics or righteousness of Isreal you jump on like a burning bag of dog shit.

You idealize community life but have not the testicular fortitude to pull out of your pathetic little existence, which you justify by saying over and over to yourself "It's the right thing for my daughter". Or some less honest version of the same.

You are envious thus judgemental towards those who do not feel so absolutely overwhelmed with negative sentiment as yourself.

Happy 2011.

May you be blessed with the serenity of purpose, peace of mind and force of will to break that Godforsaken trap you are in.

The moon landings and 9/11 are bull. Just for the record.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')her sobering essay is downright depressing and hardly idealistic

[SeaGypsy]

One of the key metaphysical reasons the greater systems must fail is to preserve human moral ethos.
If globalism is to continue right through to implementation of the NWO to the fullest; population controls are mandatory. As China has shown, the semi brutal approach only half works.
The alternative is the breakdown of more complex systems allowing accelerated population demise without manifest evil being a prime motivator. A NWO decision that 500 million is about right so let's pick our friends and wipe everyone else is not a world I want to live in and honestly is unworthy of the genome. Even if they are correct in terms of carrying capacity they cannot morally be right in how they decide which apect of the population will be reduced. Nature shall be the arbiter in this matter not some self inmportant bloated stickocracy.