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Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Questionmark » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 20:52:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', '
')The Intel CEO just said recently that it would have cost $1 billion MORE to open such a plant in the United States due to regulations, NOT taxes.


Please explain to me what makes him credible when discussing regulation and taxes? What kind of response do you expect the CEO of a major company to have? The only thing these people would EVER say is that they're too burdened with regulations and that they need to pay less in taxes. It's not for them to decide the rules they have to follow.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Questionmark » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 20:56:35

The problem I have with Libertarianism is how strictly it wishes to apply free market capitalism. Libertarians operate under the assumption that consumers are rational and that markets are efficient, and yet we've seen time and time again that this isn't true. They just refuse to acknowledge reality. Libertarianism is just anarchy, and we all know how effective of a system anarchy is.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby bratticus » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 20:58:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', 'G')ermany today is very different from what it was in the 1930's and 40's.


ORLY?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]23 arrested over German neo-Nazi radio station
November 04, 2010|By Melissa Gray, CNN
Police said those arrested are between the ages of 20 and 37. They operated an online station called Widerstand-Radio (Resistance Radio) that played music by skinhead bands about killing people and broadcast racist and hate-filled comments.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 21:14:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bratticus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', 'G')ermany today is very different from what it was in the 1930's and 40's.


ORLY?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]23 arrested over German neo-Nazi radio station
November 04, 2010|By Melissa Gray, CNN
Police said those arrested are between the ages of 20 and 37. They operated an online station called Widerstand-Radio (Resistance Radio) that played music by skinhead bands about killing people and broadcast racist and hate-filled comments.

In Germany they get arrested, in the US they'd be hanging out with Michelle Malkin, and providing "balance" on Fox panel discussions.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Oakley » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 21:29:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', 'T')he problem I have with Libertarianism is how strictly it wishes to apply free market capitalism. Libertarians operate under the assumption that consumers are rational and that markets are efficient, and yet we've seen time and time again that this isn't true. They just refuse to acknowledge reality. Libertarianism is just anarchy, and we all know how effective of a system anarchy is.


One end of the political spectrum is total freedom (anarchy) and the other is total subjugation (totalitarianism). You don't know how effective anarchy is because we have never had it. If you are talking about extremist who plant bombs to gain politically, they are not anarchist, because this is not something freedom loving people do; generally these bombers have been extreme leftists.

Libertarians do endorse minimum government, i.e., they want individual freedom with some government enforcement of human rights and punishment of those who commit acts of aggression against others, so they are not anarchist.

What we have in the US today is something much closer to the complete subjugation end of the spectrum than the anarchy end. And if you look at the progression of government expansion in the US, we are running headlong in the direction of complete subjugation.

The consequences of begging for more government to take care of you are dire. Just look at the deterioration of our rights under Bush and Obama as they fight this bogus war on terror. As Ron Paul has pointed out, our interventionist foreign policy created the hatred that brought about 9/11. But instead of taking a rational course or ending the US empire, the federal government has chosen to expand its control over us all. They are even now talking about a new "sedition act" to limit free speech that is critical of government.

As far as your comment about rational consumers and efficient markets, you are way off base. Do you actually think the government controlled markets that plunder the majority are better than free market inefficiencies or some irrational consumers, whatever you even mean by those terms? I think that advocacy of socialism, fascism, corporatism, or whatever similar slave system that government has brought is much more a demonstration of loss of contact with reality than is the advocacy of Libertarianism.
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence" Thomas H Huxley
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 22:41:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', 'T')he problem I have with Libertarianism is how strictly it wishes to apply free market capitalism. Libertarians operate under the assumption that consumers are rational and that markets are efficient, and yet we've seen time and time again that this isn't true. They just refuse to acknowledge reality. Libertarianism is just anarchy, and we all know how effective of a system anarchy is.


One end of the political spectrum is total freedom (anarchy) and the other is total subjugation (totalitarianism). You don't know how effective anarchy is because we have never had it. If you are talking about extremist who plant bombs to gain politically, they are not anarchist, because this is not something freedom loving people do; generally these bombers have been extreme leftists.

Too......bored......to.......refute......lying......wingnut....cliche....zzzzzzzzz......
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 22:48:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', 'T')he problem I have with Libertarianism is how strictly it wishes to apply free market capitalism. Libertarians operate under the assumption that consumers are rational and that markets are efficient, and yet we've seen time and time again that this isn't true. They just refuse to acknowledge reality. Libertarianism is just anarchy, and we all know how effective of a system anarchy is.


You're an idiot. You obviously have no idea what is libertarianism or anarchy.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 01:36:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', 'I') find it amazing that you hold a country that gave us Hitler(ein volk) is such high regard, and have nothing but utter contempt for American which freed the Iron Curtain!

Yeah, but what have we done lately?

It is to Hitler that we owe a lot of our "greatness". He helped shatter the developed world leaving the US alone intact to rise to the top.

Now that is all done with, and not only are the developed countries back on our feet, the developing countries are nipping at our heels.

Toodles!
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 01:41:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'Y')eah, but what have we done lately?

It is to Hitler that we owe a lot of our "greatness". He helped shatter the developed world leaving the US alone intact to rise to the top.

Now that is all done with, and not only are the developed countries back on our feet, the developing countries are nipping at our heels.

Toodles!


True enough, the USA has not been a great world leader since the Iron Curtain lifted. The Bush Sr. "realpolitik" has done nothing for freedom and caused the world to hate America. Who likes a nation that cynically deals with dictators when it's convenient? Oh and you can also thank Tojo and Stalin for helping wreck the developed world in WW2.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby BasilBoy » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 01:52:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', ' ')Is the issue capitalism, or that they are PROMOTING capitalism? It seems to me that in any kind of truly anarchist state, that what will be will be - including the economic system -- as long as it doesn't rely on some government mandated force.
I probably didn't use the best word when I wrote, "promoting". I should have just written that American Libertarians are laissez-faire capitalists. This issue is capitalism and its "usury" (rent, interest, profit).

A truly anarchist "state", if you like, will be exactly that. It can't be whatever...there are certain principles and ideas. I think you might be confusing the term with the bogus definition of chaos. For this very reason, anarchists started calling themselves libertarian socialists...to get away from this negativity (also, I think...to get around some anti-anarchist laws). Anarchists used the word libertarian LONG before the American Libertarian Party stole it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'N')ow my tiny brain or my learned American bias may be showing, but without coercion, what would SEEM to naturally evolve would be something akin to capitalism, with LOTS of competition, since daddy government wouldn't be choosing winners. (I just can't comprehend large scale redistributive socialism working without someone at the top enforcing the redistribution rules. And I assume for people to exist, they will trade goods in some form, thus there will be an economy).

Now, if that's true (please correct me Basil, if I err) - then PERHAPS they are just assuming that true libertarianism leads to laissez-faire capitalism? (I have no love or support for any particular libertarian party - only the general principle, if it could actually be allowed to work).
I think the only way capitalism forms is WITH coercion, not the absence of it. Think about it...you're living off the land, hunter/gather style, with your family and community. Are you going to naturally go work in some crappy factory? Do you think slavery is natural (America's foundation was built with slave labor)? Somewhere along the line, humans decided to subjugate others for their own gain. This subjugation is now being done by states and corporations.

If you're having a hard time comprehending such a system, you may want to take a look at the Spanish Revolution. Other examples that might help are the Israeli Kibbutz movement and the worker occupations of factories in Argentina after the financial collapse in 2001...there are others. I would bet that if people actually took the time to truly understand anarchism, that many would embrace it...
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 01:56:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', 'I') think the only way capitalism forms is WITH coercion, not the absence of it. Think about it...you're living off the land, hunter/gather style, with your family and community. Are you going to naturally go work in some crappy factory? Do you think slavery is natural (America's foundation was built with slave labor)? Somewhere along the line, humans decided to subjugate others for their own gain. This subjugation is now being done by states and corporations.


What nonsense. Humans stopped being in hunter-gatherer mode at least 10K years ago. Exceptions like aboriginal Indians and Masai warriors do NOT count. Modern capitalism appears only a few hundred years ago WELL into the feudal system. You are not a student of history, but sure viva la revolucion loser.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 01:59:22

http://www.thoughtsfromaconservativemom.com/?p=12163
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')ake factories. “I can tell you definitively that it costs $1 billion more per factory for me to build, equip, and operate a semiconductor manufacturing facility in the United States,” Otellini said.

The rub: Ninety percent of that additional cost of a $4 billion factory is not labor but the cost to comply with taxes and regulations that other nations don’t impose.


Yeah I'm gonna believe DOOMERS over the Intel CEO.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 02:03:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '
')You think that because there is not some thug commanding us to follow his rules that there would not be order, peace, and progress.


I take it you'd have wanted to be in Baghdad following the fall of Saddam?

The problem with libertarianism is it assumes that people are moral creatures. They aren't. The same corruption that afflicts government is in the hearts of the thug that breaks your door down because the police have been disbanded. It's not the institution of government that's the problem. It's human nature.


I have noticed that children who are over controlled by their parents often go wild when they leave home, partly because when the control disappears they don't know how to control themselves. I think this is what happens on a societal level when people have been conditioned by a long period of suppression and are suddenly set free; they don't know how to deal with it. But just as most young people who leave a controlling home, eventually learn to live with freedom, so too do societies.

You are wrong about people being basically bad. People basically want to fulfill their needs, and given the opportunity to do will act in a civil manner. There have always been and will always be sociopathic personalities who will deviate from the norms of civilized society, but there are better ways to deal with these than government having a monopoly on the use of force. And, if you look at where present day ordinary crime comes from, it is from poverty; and poverty is the chief product manufactured by government as it rigs the economy for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many.

It is an abdication of personal responsibility and personal power to look to others to take care of you or to demand government give you advantages over competitors, not to mention the moral implications. So if government police, a relatively recent invention by the way, were to disappear, people would deal with the few deviants by cooperative efforts like neighborhood watches, learning to defend one's self, private security services, insurance, vigilantism, security systems, and whatever else human inventiveness brings. Government only stands in the way of effective security against deviants by taking a monopoly position in defense, even going so far as to disarm honest individuals with "gun control" and sometimes prosecuting those who use violence in self defense.

Why take second best when that is what government brings (example public schools vs. private schools) when free markets can do so much better?

Good topic, sociopaths. Good book on the subject:http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0739456741/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1293601284&sr=8-2
What is it, her estimate, 4% of general population are sociopaths.

This is a good movie on corporations as sociopaths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation

People who rise to the top (whether they are CEOs or WallStreet bankers) are going to represent a much higher percentage of sociopaths. Ditto on politics. People who care nothing for other people's well-being, who are only good at imitating and acting out empathy or real emotions to try to fool others into thinking they are human. Ditto on politicians and lawyers.

Libertarianism is a great liberating philosophy for sociopaths. Bad enough what we have now.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 02:09:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'L')ibertarianism is a great liberating philosophy for sociopaths. Bad enough what we have now.


Your ideology, Communism only killed between 100-150 million since they started "practicing". Somehow I don't think Libertarians have much of a body count.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 02:13:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'L')ibertarianism is a great liberating philosophy for sociopaths. Bad enough what we have now.


Your ideology, Communism only killed between 100-150 million since they started "practicing". Somehow I don't think Libertarians have much of a body count.

My ideology?

I consider communism even worse than libertarianism.

They are both on the extremes of what I consider common sense.

What is the libertarian solution for market externalities or does a libertarian acknowledge such things? Erin Brokovich?
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

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You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 02:26:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'W')hat is the libertarian solution for market externalities or does a libertarian acknowledge such things? Erin Brokovich?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-333m-payout-an-oscar-and-now-a-final-twist-was-erin-brockovich-wrong-2159569.html

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')early 15 years after the utility company Pacific Gas and Electric paid a $333m (£210m) out-of-court settlement to end claims that it had polluted the water in Hinkley, California, with chromium 6, a carcinogen, a new survey shows that the number of cancer cases there in 1996-2008 was not especially elevated. In fact, they were lower than would be expected.


Pwned.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 02:43:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', 'T')he problem I have with Libertarianism is how strictly it wishes to apply free market capitalism. Libertarians operate under the assumption that consumers are rational and that markets are efficient, and yet we've seen time and time again that this isn't true. They just refuse to acknowledge reality. Libertarianism is just anarchy, and we all know how effective of a system anarchy is.

You're an idiot. You obviously have no idea what is libertarianism or anarchy.

The miraculous flawless functioning of the free markets depends on perfect transparency to a degree never actually seen. Everyone can make rational decisions as long as nobody is secretive or deceptive. But the reward of competitive advantage for even low levels of secrecy are immense.

Yeah, free markets work as long as everyone, absolutely everyone, renounces their main competitive advantage, secrecy.

But since that doesn't happen, the main advantage is insider information and deception that gives too-good-to-be-true results.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby BasilBoy » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 02:54:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', 'W')hat nonsense. Humans stopped being in hunter-gatherer mode at least 10K years ago. Exceptions like aboriginal Indians and Masai warriors do NOT count. Modern capitalism appears only a few hundred years ago WELL into the feudal system. You are not a student of history, but sure viva la revolucion loser.

Name calling and arguing with yourself...a sign of real intelligence. I never said anything about when agriculture started...as if I meant that we went directly from hunter/gatherer to working for GM. My point was that it's not instinctual or natural. People have to be coerced into becoming employees...
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 03:13:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', 'W')hat nonsense. Humans stopped being in hunter-gatherer mode at least 10K years ago. Exceptions like aboriginal Indians and Masai warriors do NOT count. Modern capitalism appears only a few hundred years ago WELL into the feudal system. You are not a student of history, but sure viva la revolucion loser.

Name calling and arguing with yourself...a sign of real intelligence. I never said anything about when agriculture started...as if I meant that we went directly from hunter/gatherer to working for GM. My point was that it's not instinctual or natural. People have to be coerced into becoming employees...


How is HG instinctual and natural compared to modern life? You're insane if you think that's the case.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Asterisk » Wed 29 Dec 2010, 06:40:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '
')You are right that the far left and far right are hugely different. You are wrong to clai that the media hacks that infest these two channels are substantively different or behaviorally different -- they just come at things from their target audiences' differing viewpoints.


I'm not going to get into it, but I can tell you that the left does not lie and the right does.

This is not my opinion vs. yours, the above is an objective and verifiable fact.

That's all I will say because I have decided that debating politics with right-wingers/libertarians is no different from debating climate change with a climate denier. Facts mean nothing and nothing I say is going to change your mind, so let's agree to disagree.

You have a right to believe what you like, but the fact is, Olbermann/Maddow do not lie and Rush/Orielly/ Hannity/Beck do.
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