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Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 13:48:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'N')ice try. You must watch people like Ed Shultz and Rachael Maddow on MSNBC too much. They'll rot your brain just as surely as the idiocy spewed from their counterparts (Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity) on Fox News.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Asterisk', 'Y')ou cannot equate Beck/Hannity with Shultz/Maddow. Beck and Hannity lie and cherry-pick on a regular basis and Shultz/Maddow do not.

The left wing media and the right wing media are NOT the same. One is honest and the other is not. I'm sorry, I'm not being partisan, I'm just pointing out an objective fact.


First of all, MSNBC and FoxNews are not on opposite sides of the political spectrum. Rather, they are two factions within the same basic ideology, which supports the established state/corporate control of our (American) society. Their constant bickering gives the illusion that we are having a real debate and are witnessing democracy...we're not. Both channels are owned by corporations that have a similar agenda (and that's to turn a profit by attracting more viewers, while maintaining the established order).

MSNBC and FoxNews may be equally biased, but that does not mean they are the same. Just because one is biased does not mean one is wrong. I think any serious study of the output these two media outlets would prove that MSNBC is more factual. Sure, they may spin these facts or deliver in a contemptuous way, but I don't think MSNBC is dispensing lies at the rate FoxNews is. One may not like Rachel Maddow or agree with her, but she is clearly more intelligent, reasonable, and informed than Glenn Beck...
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 15:21:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'L')ibertarians are some of the biggest sheep around. What is so great about be ruled by unelected plutocracy? Imagine if your Christmas dinner was served Libertarian style. First person in line takes all the food and everyone else has to pay or work for him as slaves if they want to eat. Think you got what it takes to be first in line? Well I got news for you. The person who got there first was there before you were even born. It is not a level playing field and new will be. Without some form of government to slap the hand of the fat cat pig from taking the whole turkey you will either starve or become his slave. Libertarianism makes exactly zero sense in a world of finite resources.

Bzzzzzzzt! Sorry. Wrong answer, you lose, but thanks for playing.
Nice try. You must watch people like Ed Shultz and Rachael Maddow on MSNBC too much. They'll rot your brain just as surely as the idiocy spewed from their counterparts (Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity) on Fox News.

Planty was trying to sell us on this fairy tale the other day that there are sites that debunk MSNBC the way Media Matters debunks Fox's daily hoaxes. In fact, the anti-MSNBC sites just seem to be more the blahblahblah whingy c ult of conservative victimhood, but no lies by MSNBC were identified.

I've been pointing out that Fox and the right have moved into a sort of Marxist dialectics. the criticism of dialectics is that it provides no plan or strategy and that it never ever responds to criticism. Instead, it just absorbs the criticisms into their little fantasy world and they plow on ahead. If you say "Stories X, Y, and Z on Fox are plain hoaxes" then they'll just say "Rachel Maddow is a liar" and move on without skipping a beat. Oh and "War is Peace," "Slavery is freedom," because the other criticism of this method is that generates a spew of propaganda aimed at undermining well pretty much everything. Because in the dialectic world, everything is everything else, and everything is equally worthless. In America, this has long be regarded as morally and intellectually nankrupt.

Of course Libertarians never say who the expect to step into this power vaccuum they will create. Unlimited personal freedom swiftly changing into slavery is a paradox being kicked around since Socrates. Surely the Libertarians aren't oblivious to this 2500 year old chestnut? No to me they look like the propaganda agents of he slavemasters.

I think the liazze-faire pimps, the AGW denial, an the "MSNBC lies" squad are all pretty much the same people.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 15:41:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BasilBoy', ' ')The left doesn't mean big government. Anarchy, or no state, is as far left as you can go. Many left-libertarians are in fact anarchists...or libertarian socialists. These ideologies support stateless societies and voluntary associations while rejecting hierarchy. I think the best example, or at least on the largest scale, of the implementaion of these principles can be found during the Spanish Revolution.

The Libertarian Party in America has been hijacked by anarcho-capitalists and there is no way the principles of libertarianism can be achieved with corporations running the show (unless the structure of corporations completely changed)...


Thanks Basil for the informative answer. I guess living in America with all the "big-party we'll enslave you with OUR rules" stuff whizzing at us ALL the time, I never really THOUGHT about an anarchist position as being extreme left wing. In this stupid country, if you vote for a minor party - people usually say you're "wasting your vote". (Hello? Does ANYONE remember the concept of freedom this country is supposed to be about?!)

It's really kind of astounding if you think about it. Far left, as it is practiced and discussed (yelled about) in the U.S. advocates big government in virtually ALL ways except the military and the control of morals (which the GOP handles in spades, sadly). Let's face it -- any failure of ANYTHING, including big government brings cries from the left for MORE taxes and MORE big government, as though that will fix everything.

I have to pause a while and get my head around that and do some reading, I suppose. Anarchy = far left and Marx = far left (at least from my understanding)... Wow - I'm getting dizzy.

Thanks again.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 16:24:09

The problem with "the far left" talking point is the asumption that there is anything resembling "the far left" in America and goes downhill from there.

The "far left" is being expanded every day by heavily funded paranoid fringe on the right to include what seems to be the vast majority of Americans.

The "far left" story line requires elaborate global consipracy theories and a right wing cult of victimization. of course, that's not just one conspiracy, but it means getting lost in the tall weeds of conspiracy la-la land.

To quote a famous opponent of "the Far Left" conspiracy

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he art of leadership ...consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention....The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 17:49:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'I') have to pause a while and get my head around that and do some reading, I suppose. Anarchy = far left and Marx = far left (at least from my understanding)... Wow - I'm getting dizzy.


Although Anarchists and Marxists are both considered leftists (with anarchy generally considered further left)...and while they may be sympathetic towards each other, they don't prescribe to the same ideology. They've had armed conflicts with one another. The politcal spectrum is quite complex...

You're welcome and any attempt to try to understand it all should make one dizzy...
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby eXpat » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 17:50:06

You can show this thread now to your Mom PrestonSturges, I´m sure she will have it cristal clear :)
For the record i favour Libertarianism as well.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 18:37:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eXpat', 'Y')ou can show this thread now to your Mom PrestonSturges, I´m sure she will have it cristal clear :)
For the record i favour Libertarianism as well.

Well that's half the battle is that like many people she heard five seconds of something that was pretty misleading then latched onto it like she actually had a dog in the fight and seemed determined to defend some point.

A friend of mine is rabidly Republican but it scared the heck of him when he heard his dad spouting right wing stuff that's sponsored by day trading and real estate flipping scams. It's scarey whenever parents latch onto some random bullshit and don't believe family members because it makes you wonder if someone can't swindsle them out of their home in a heartbeat.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby careinke » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 20:15:33

Preston,

How did you get so much smarter than your mother? Do you think all older people are stupid, or just your mother? Do you think you will become stupid when you get older?

Just wondering
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 20:27:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'S')tossel was on, and his arguement about everything is that everything has unintended consequences, so we shouldn;t do anything. All in his trademark sing-song almost whiney voice. He said credit card regulation was bad because people would use loan sharks..


But the alternative is allowing the BANKS to be loan sharks. If loan sharks are bad, then why is it okay if it's Capital One and not Vinny down the block. Sure, Cap One won't "break your legs" but on the other hand Vinny can't doom you to a LIFETIME of inescapable debt / bad credit slavery. Of course if you owe enough the loan shark could make you disappear but this whole comparison is just stupid -- it's like saying ok let business be the criminals or else street criminals will take their place. :roll:

As for explaining liberterianism.. it's not as "cool" as it sounds, it's really just going back to the past. Tell your mom to think about what life was like in, oh, 1890ish. That's liberterianism. Government does very little, business has carte blanche to do whatever it damn well pleases (including pollute, poison consumers, bust up unions by force). On the plus side, there was a lot of individual freedom from government in the late 19th and early 20th century. On the downside, freedom doesn't mean much if you're living in poverty so bad that even your kids have to leave grade school to slave in the factories.

For the rich, liberterianism means unbridled freedom. For the poor, it means freedom from government but slavery to the rich. We seem to be headed for a situation of slavery to government AND the rich -- I guess you'd call that oligarchic fascism.

EDIT: another thing you could tell your mom is that liberterians would take away her social security and her medicare. And that's not an exaggeration.. abolishing those programs is a core principal of liberterianism.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Cog » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 06:29:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')EDIT: another thing you could tell your mom is that liberterians would take away her social security and her medicare. And that's not an exaggeration.. abolishing those programs is a core principal of liberterianism.


Totally untrue. Libertarians believe you should be able to opt out of the involuntary nature of those programs and invest your money where you see fit. If you desire to have the government manage your money rather than a corporation or yourself , a Libertarian would not object. The nature of contracts willingly undertaken is the core principle of libertarianism.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 07:47:44

American-style Libertarianism is a great idea: all the freedom that money can buy.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 07:51:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kristen', 'A') libretarian is simply the belief that "every x (person) has a right to do as they choose as long as they don't interfere with every other x's (peoples) same right.

A good explanation of libertarianism.

And what makes sure that people with more money don't interfere (theoretically) with other people's rights? Ooops, that evil G-word.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Cloud9 » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 09:39:36

If the talking head is talking your book then you deem him fair and open minded such is the nature of our personal bias.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Oakley » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 11:15:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kristen', 'A') libretarian is simply the belief that "every x (person) has a right to do as they choose as long as they don't interfere with every other x's (peoples) same right.

A good explanation of libertarianism.

And what makes sure that people with more money don't interfere (theoretically) with other people's rights? Ooops, that evil G-word.


It is a big assumption that only government can enforce the rights of people. Libertarians recognize that it is legitimate to use force in self defense, hence they do support government force as their agents in self defense, which government would could only be supported by voluntary contributions. And what about private enforcement like security services and arbitration? If people bought insurance against the violation of their rights, then insurers would have an interest in preventing and/or redressing such violations.

It is conditioned thinking that sees only government as an answer to problems that are common to all men.
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence" Thomas H Huxley
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby mos6507 » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 11:35:26

While you're busy explaining libertarianism make sure you direct her to this site.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby BasilBoy » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 11:41:27

There is truly a misunderstanding of what libertarianism is here. Historically, libertarianism has been similar to anarchism, which is a socialist movement. Fundamentally, it rejects coercive institutions, including the state...and it strongly opposes capitalism. The American Libertarian party is promoting laissez-faire capitalism and therefore cannot be libertarian. These fascists have hijacked the term and debased its true meaning...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter all we are socialists as the social-democrats, the socialists, the communists, and the I.W.W. are all Socialists. The difference -- the fundamental one -- between us and all the other is that they are authoritarian while we are libertarian; they believe in a State or Government of their own; we believe in no State or Government.
[Nicola Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti, The Letters of Sacco and Vanzetti, p. 274]

In case you're not aware, Sacco and Vanzetti were anarchists...
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 12:19:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', 'P')reston,

How did you get so much smarter than your mother? Do you think all older people are stupid, or just your mother? Do you think you will become stupid when you get older?

Just wondering

Well that's a nontrivial question all right. Mom has voted republican her whole life but has framed awards for the tens of thousands of hours of community volunteer wrk she has done, mostly with immigrants and juvenile delinquents, largely on her own initiative. And she's quite smart.

How much people spout random bullshit depends on seveal things. Some people are just manipulative underperformers, like obnoxious children who enjoy making other people beg them to study. Some kids were beaten down daily and ended up that way, some were spoiled. Many coservatives have that fused image of God/government/Daddy (note how the rigt encourages that) where IRL Daddy drank himself to death and God is the all-seeing psychopath in the clouds, and government is just one more part of their chronic pants-crapping fear, which seems real to them and bafles the rest of us.

Some people just never paid any attention to politics, that's where Mom is. But as people get older, the last emotions they have anger and paranoia, and lot of people go to visit their mom/dad to find out the house has been taken over by some nurse/grifter with a criminal record and meth teeth and the will has been changed because this con artist has convinced grandma her children are conspiring against them. Note that Fox viewers are almost entirely over 60, and they buy into paranoid nonsense like "death panels."

Mom is now struggling to ignore the around the clock stories and editorials demanding cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and pensions. I also explained to her that "nice Mr. Sotssel" thinks she should not have medical insurance either. I can explain to dad that all that campaign talk about "welfare" meant Social Security, but it was Rush who convinced voters it meant slavery reparations.

The other issue is what Hitler called something like the publics unlimited power of forgetting. mom would forget Hitler, I read Hitler so I don't repeat him, and so I can say "deleted, every Glenn Beck point you just cited is from Mein Kampf." Mom would say it's "not nice" to point out when people spout National Socialism. Mom is the person that would simply flush Hitler down the memory hole, even though Hitler basically said "They will flush me down the memory hole in a matter of months, and then I'm back baby!"

What Libertarians share with Fascists is "It is always the myth of the lost tribal paradise, the hysterical refusal to carry the cross of civilization"
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 12:28:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kristen', 'A') libretarian is simply the belief that "every x (person) has a right to do as they choose as long as they don't interfere with every other x's (peoples) same right.

A good explanation of libertarianism.
And what makes sure that people with more money don't interfere (theoretically) with other people's rights? Ooops, that evil G-word.


It is a big assumption that only government can enforce the rights of people. Libertarians recognize that it is legitimate to use force in self defense, hence they do support government force as their agents in self defense, which government would could only be supported by voluntary contributions.

Sounds like limitless corruption and slavery to me. I'm not sure i want to live in a world where Paris Hilton and Carrot Top get to be Somali warlords because of all the "value" they create.
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby Oakley » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 12:54:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kristen', 'A') libretarian is simply the belief that "every x (person) has a right to do as they choose as long as they don't interfere with every other x's (peoples) same right.

A good explanation of libertarianism.
And what makes sure that people with more money don't interfere (theoretically) with other people's rights? Ooops, that evil G-word.


It is a big assumption that only government can enforce the rights of people. Libertarians recognize that it is legitimate to use force in self defense, hence they do support government force as their agents in self defense, which government would could only be supported by voluntary contributions.

Sounds like limitless corruption and slavery to me. I'm not sure i want to live in a world where Paris Hilton and Carrot Top get to be Somali warlords because of all the "value" they create.


You mean like the limitless corruption and slavery, which the government you endorse brings us today in spades.

You think that because there is not some thug commanding us to follow his rules that there would not be order, peace, and progress. Yet the history of the world, as chronicled by Rose Lane Wilder, in Discovery of Freedom, shows that the black periods were when we had plenty of government imposed "order", and the good periods were characterized by freedom with little government.

Today, in the US, the majority are plundered for the benefit of the few, enforced by government and the laws created to administer this slave system. The pittance passed out to the masses to curry their favor keeps the thugs in power. When you argue in favor of government force for other than common defense, you argue for slavery, and that is what you are getting. Your arguments that unbridled violence would result from the absence of the current illegitimate functioning of government in the US are unfounded. In fact, the only legitimate function of government is mutual defense against those who use violence against us, both foreign and domestic; if their actions were limited to those activities, there would be much less violence in our society than we presently experience.

I don't understand antagonism to freedom, but then I suppose it can be unsettling to those who do not have experience in directing their own lives. Look at what happens to people who have spent decades in prison when they are finally released; directing their own lives after years of having others direct them does becomes a major problem.

Yes, being free does involve personal responsibility and living with the consequences of one's own actions. Being responsible for one's self is a burden, but nothing compared to the burden of the chains of slavery.
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence" Thomas H Huxley
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Re: Explain Libertarianism To My Mom

Unread postby mos6507 » Tue 28 Dec 2010, 12:58:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '
')You think that because there is not some thug commanding us to follow his rules that there would not be order, peace, and progress.


I take it you'd have wanted to be in Baghdad following the fall of Saddam?

The problem with libertarianism is it assumes that people are moral creatures. They aren't. The same corruption that afflicts government is in the hearts of the thug that breaks your door down because the police have been disbanded. It's not the institution of government that's the problem. It's human nature.
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