What first book do you SUGGEST?

by **chuck6877** » Mon 16 May 2005, 11:36:17

What first book do you guy's suggest?

ALSO what is the book you guy's would recommend to skeptics that will not scare them off?

I've read the lifeaftertheoilcrash.net website. Was eye-opening especially because I'm a pilot associated with one of the dying Majors right now.

I'm thinking about leaving flying and doing something else before my airline is gone entirely.

I have read tons in the last 3-4 days on peak oil. I think it is going to happen as you guys do. Scary stuff. Aviation will be the first industry to have many casualties that's for sure.

I've always followed hydrogen power etc. and I'm skeptical that it can't be made into something great. Am I wrong? Toyota and GM just joined forces today to share the costs of getting it ramped up. If some major players get involved and some technological breakthroughs happen I think it could be doable?? They'd of course have to figure out how to make the hydrogen fuel, which of course is the sucky part. Environmental waste, windmills?

Well back to where I started. What will be the most enlightening first book for me to read?

ALSO, what would be the best book to suggest to skeptics that will not scare them off?
chuck

by **RonMN** » Mon 16 May 2005, 11:39:58

just go to WWW.LIFEAFTERTHEOILCRASH.NET & read both pages...also you can buy a documentary called "END OF SUBURBIA"...then go to amazon.com & search for "CARLA EMERY" (Book of old fasioned recepis/encyclopedia of country living) it's the same book...

by **RonMN** » Mon 16 May 2005, 11:41:36

AHHHH, i missed the "not scare them off" part...

The "end of suburbia" tape may be just what you're looking for.

by **chuck6877** » Mon 16 May 2005, 11:47:53

Thanks for replying Ronmn,

Ok, I think I'm on the right track. I bought "End of Suburbia" last night around 4 am! I can't sleep lately!

3 hours last night and then right back on here doing research.

I'm going to show my family members the movie. Reading reviews on this site of it, make it sound like a good start.

Any book suggestions for me personally and for me to give to others?

I've read both pages of the lifeaftertheoilcrash.net site. Doomsday baby.

I could handle a FIRST book like that myself but don't think family members would be able to.

Thanks,
Chuck

by **RickTaylor** » Mon 16 May 2005, 11:53:43

I'd suggest "The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies " by Richard Heinberg. He includes a thoughtful discussion of the arguments of anti-peak oil people (like Mark Lynch) and explains why he doesn't find them convincing. He does a careful review of the various alternatives to oil and explains their strengths and weaknesses. He comes across as thoughtful and reasonable; it's not a typical polemic. I think it would be difficult for someone to read the whole thing carefully and not be convinced that peak oil is a very serious issue indeed.

--Rick Taylor

by **RonMN** » Mon 16 May 2005, 12:10:25

Be very slow & cautious about telling family members...they have a tendency to dismiss you! (as many many of us on this site can attest to).

Little tid-bits of info at a time seems to work best.

I finally got my mom to sit down & watch "End of suburbia" and now SHE wants to tell the world

i explained how that is a natural tendency & i reminded her of how long it took me to get her to watch it.

by **mgibbons19** » Mon 16 May 2005, 12:15:55

I found The End of Oil to be a really reasonable intro.

Don't tell your family much at all. Just leave the books laying around. Give em tidbits.

by **RonMN** » Mon 16 May 2005, 12:16:20

Chuck, you sound like me a few months after i learned about PO...at first i was hell bent on dis-proving it...searching for the chink in the armor of this theory...

after 4-5 months of sleepless nights researching, i found i couldn't disprove it. Take a breath...slow down a bit...if you get a really good nights sleep tonight, peak oil will still be here tomorrow morning

Best of luck to you (and to us all)!

by **EddieB** » Mon 16 May 2005, 13:33:09

I've been flipping out about PO for about three months. It doesn't cause me to lose sleep anymore, but for first month it did. I'm still not approaching it from a fully grounded place, but I trust that I will. Know that it takes time for the reality of PO to truly sink in. The End of Suburbia is a good intro (it convinced my dad that I wasn't totally off my rocker). I liked Hubbert's Peak by Deffeyes, because he goes into basic garden variety organic chemistry and simple logistic regressions of discovery vs production. If you like science you'll probably enjoy it, but one of my brothers found it boring... Yeah, just take it one day at a time. Life goes on one way or another.

by **savethehumans** » Mon 16 May 2005, 13:47:46

I'm with RickTaylor--Heinberg's "The Party's Over" was MY first PO book, and looking back now (after reading many a PO book!), I'm glad. If it had been any other book, I'd have been too scared s***less to EVER deal with it. Instead, he whetted my appetite for more info, scary as it was. Now I know the world as we know it is finished, and it influences every thought, every action, et al. But I can still function, and I appreciate each day, and have a firmer perspective on what's REALLY important. Now, I'm not saying Heinberg is responsible for all of that (that would be silly), but he's a teacher by trade, and knows how to give you the bad news without giving you a fatal heart attack! That helped! (LOL)

I don't even want to think about where I'd be if I'd tackled Deffeyes or Savinar first! :lol:

"The Party's Over," and its follow-up book, "Powerdown." Definitely!

by **aldente** » Mon 16 May 2005, 16:52:21

I recomment " A Century of War" by William Engdahl.

Do a seach on Amazon, there are reviews about the book. Or you can read the following article by the author himself:
http://www.currentconcerns.ch/archive/2 ... 030409.php

Peak Oil becomes one aspect of the larger picture. Here he writes an article about Peak Oil
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ENG408A.html

by **arretium** » Mon 16 May 2005, 17:02:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chuck6877', 'O')k, I think I'm on the right track. I bought "End of Suburbia" last night around 4 am! I can't sleep lately!

3 hours last night and then right back on here doing research.

I'm going to show my family members the movie.

by **chuck6877** » Mon 16 May 2005, 18:25:39

I'm more confused than ever on which one to read first. You guys have all suggested different books. Is there any agreement on which one I should approach first?

It's funny that you all mention you couldn't sleep for a while. I've known about if for 4 days and ever since I haven't had more than 4 hours sleep. Last night was 3! Thank goodness I only had to pilot one flight today and now I'm at the hotel.

This whole thing just affects me so much. First of all being in the airline industry oil prices are pretty darn important. I'm with a regional airline for Delta, and I'm afraid for the future of my airline that's for sure. I thought I was going to be able to be a pilot forever. Well now I know that's not a sure thing.

I have listened to Coast to Coast AM forever and have been hearing discussions on biofuel, fuel cells, wind power, hybrids, etc. for a while now.

I thought I had known a lot about the future energy needs of the country, but this peak oil discussion just hit me out of nowhere. Someone on one of the aviation forums I frequent posted on a discussion of oil nothing but the website address www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net and I read it. WOW. What a first introduction that site was.

Two days ago I emailed my mother and father and told them to read the site but this morning realized they better not and called and stopped her. Thank god they hadn't read that site yet!!! I bought "End of Suburbia" last night after reading reviews on this site and thought that would be a better way to approach them.

I hope they don't get too skeptical. They tend to be. I hope my wife also will believe it somewhat. I'm going to show her the video. She tends to be skeptical also.

I know hydrogen fuel cells are a long shot, but the technology has advanced a lot recently. Do you guys think it will be impossible to make a hydrogen fuel cell economy? Is making the hydrogen just too difficult and fuel inefficient? TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENTS might happen! We in the U.S, wouldn't be the only ones doing it. China, Japan, India and everyone could be doing it at the same time in the future, and maybe before oil has reached over $150/bl we'll have a good system in the works to supply 25% of the cars in the U.S. w/ hydrogen fuel. Hybrids will help until the infrastructure can be built up.

Maybe we'll be ok?????

GM and Toyota just teamed up to split the costs on making fuel cell vehicles. Those are two big power houses. BP Amaco is already trying to figure out how to make the hydrogen cheaply. I'm sure Exxon Mobil will be a big player in the future also. God knows they have the money to spend on some research if they haven't already?

LET'S ALL PRAY that we can avert this crisis. From reading the recommendations of books on this site it sounds like every single author thinks a MAD MAX like world is going to be completely unavoidable. I know it will crash the housing market which is teetering on the edge, make unemployment around 15% etc. and cause the stockmarket to be stagnant or decline some. Can't the unemployed just move in with relatives and people just work from home more? Oh boy, probably not huh? The desperate be out robbing Walmarts for food, breaking into people's houses when they're cold, and siphoning fuel out of people's gas tanks won't they?? Doomsday baby. This whole thing sucks!! Unemployment will probably be more like 50% or worse in some scenarios won't it? AHHHH!! I'm thinking about this while I'm typing, lol, and boy, oh boy, once it starts it could just get worse huh?

Well thanks for the warm welcome from some of you guys, and I hope I'll be able to contribute to a lot of discussions on here in the future.

Thanks guys and
pray for Delta and more importantly my Delta Connection company:)

Chuck

by **dmtu** » Mon 16 May 2005, 19:04:00

Chuck,

I had never heard of PO until I read Jeremy Riffkins "Hydrogen Economy". It wasn't a doom and gloom book by any means but it did mention PO. I kind of blew it off and kept on plodding along until I just happened to run into lifeaftertheoilcrash. Personally I think Savinar falls too far on to the doomer side of the fence.

My next book on the subject was Ken Deffeys "Hubberts Peak". This is the book I would recommend for an introduction largely because there are really no doomer views in it, Just logical geology explained in laymans terms. For the skeptic, and I am one I recommend that gem.

by **RickTaylor** » Tue 17 May 2005, 00:15:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chuck6877', 'I') thought I had known a lot about the future energy needs of the country, but this peak oil discussion just hit me out of nowhere. Someone on one of the aviation forums I frequent posted on a discussion of oil nothing but the website address www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net and I read it. WOW. What a first introduction that site was.

by **chuck6877** » Tue 17 May 2005, 17:17:38

I've read so much the last couple days, I can't remember where I read it but maybe you guys can help me with the details.

One site said that there is a Uranium like substance on the moon that has ENORMOUS ENERGY POTENTIAL. What site was this do you guys know, and what are the details of this substance?

The site said that if the space shuttle went to the moon and filled up its cargo hold with the substance, it would be enough to power the US for a year?

We could make a massive effort to go back to the moon and get this stuff. Then we could MAKE HYDROGEN FUEL out of it! BOOM problem solved?

Have you guys heard of this substance? Did I read some bad info?

Chuck

by **dmtu** » Tue 17 May 2005, 23:12:59

The material is HE3/helium 3. It is a rarity on earth due to oxidation or some similar reaction. Run a search on super fluid. As I recall this is linked to fusion somehow and I DO believe it is the reason Bush wants to go back to the moon. Furthemore, The Colorado School of mines actually had a web page at one time that looked at mining HE3 on the moon, haven't been able to find that link for a long time though. I'll mention Deffys again, best book for the skeptical mind.

by **vegasmade** » Wed 18 May 2005, 05:46:04

Hey Chuckie, don't worry, you still have your pension. Unless of course you work for United or Northwest (they just cut their pension benefits by 50 and 60%). Maybe a job in the auto industry? Oh, no, that's not gonna work either. (GM and Ford both have huge pension liabilities, over $500 Billion combined.)
So don't worry, if oil doesn't peak, the economy will probably tank anyway. (How big can the bubble get?) It's not like it has a precedence to do so. (1860's & 1929) I hate being suggestive, but maybe stick it out with the airlines untill early next year. There's a huge speech planned, all the decsion makers will be there (you know the guys with the capitol). It'll be a hell of a party to crash (into).

Sorry, just being onrey.

by **Whitecrab** » Wed 18 May 2005, 11:59:25

Here are my picks for a good intro book:

Yourself, or a friend you know well who will look into the subject deeply: The Oil Age is Over by Matt Savinar. This is the most THOROUGH book out there. "Why won't the economy save us? Why not the tar sands? Won't the market solve it?" It is a great book for challenging every excuse to laugh off Peak Oil that is out there. The book is too pessimistic and the geopolitical stuff at the end is pretty out there, which is why I only recommend it for people you have some personal sway with, or you know are quite openminded.

For people you don't know that well, your boss, professors, politicians, the media, someone who hates conspiracy theories, etc: The Party's Over by Richard Heinberg. This book is an excellent, readable, professional introduction to the problem: why oil is important, how the Hubbert curve works, why the criticisms against it are incorrect, why alternative energy is no easy solution. Heinberg has a bit of a greenie bent at the end of the book but that shouldn't turn anyone off.

Warning: Heinberg's second book, PowerDown, is a lot more severe and is not a good introduction book. In it he openly talks about civilizations collasping, the US administration having it's hands dirty, etc. I like the book but it is NOT the way to lead the topic; show it after someone is mostly convinced and wants to know what to do or what could happen in the future.

Family gatherings, parties, etc: The End of Suburbia DVD. I find EOS a bit too optimistic and light on the technical details, but it is easily accessable and it's easier to make sure people will learn about it if you're watching the movie there with them. Just being a movie also lends it a nice air of authority. Follow up with books if anyone doubts it.

Also-rans: High Noon for Natural Gas by Julian Darley. This book pretty well assumes you know about Peak Oil, but it's an excellent second book. Comepletely covers the natural gas situation, which for North America may be as bad or even worse than PO. Darley also turns hard greenie at the very end of the book.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dmtu', 'C')huck,

I had never heard of PO until I read Jeremy Riffkins "Hydrogen Economy". It wasn't a doom and gloom book by any means but it did mention PO. I kind of blew it off and kept on plodding along until I just happened to run into lifeaftertheoilcrash. Personally I think Savinar falls too far on to the doomer side of the fence.

My next book on the subject was Ken Deffeys "Hubberts Peak". This is the book I would recommend for an introduction largely because there are really no doomer views in it, Just logical geology explained in laymans terms. For the skeptic, and I am one I recommend that gem.

by **cat** » Wed 18 May 2005, 18:09:36

I'm new to this subject as well and have not read an actual book on the topic yet. However, I did go and see Michael Klare at a conference called "Beyond Oil: Challenges and Opportunities for Peace, Jobs, Justice, and Sustainability". It was really interesting and I liked Klare. I was suprised at how many people were there. Has anybody out there read any of his books "Resource Wars" or "Blood and Oil". If so, what did you think of them?

What first book do you SUGGEST?

What first book do you SUGGEST?

Confused on which one to read first

Re: Confused on which one to read first

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