by dorlomin » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 06:42:04
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Now I was sent an article on line about an anti-christian vandalism case in the UK right before Christmas and I ask myself, where are we headed? Is this any different than the Taliban blowing up a very old statue of Buddha when they took power in Afghanistan? Tolerance is the supposed goal of the PC movement but it seems clear to me that most people shouting PC slogans are the least tolerant amongst us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw7tK8qk ... re=related video giving some background of the tradition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk3GQf8k ... _embedded#! video tribute after the vandalism
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/famous- ... own-in-uk/ news link about the vandalism
OK call me a tree hugger if you must, but anyone who chops down a 2000 year old tree as a political statement is disgusting.
Ok first up the tree was not 2000 years old.
That particular cutting of it is supposed to have been planted in the 50s, the older tree has died several times in the past and cuttings of it used to renew the 'miricle tree'.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The tree in the grounds of the abbey was pronounced dead in June 1991, and cut down the following February.[21] However, many cuttings were taken from it before its destruction. The pre-1991 thorn in the grounds of Glastonbury Abbey is said to be a cutting from the original plant which was planted in secret after the original was destroyed. Now only trees budded or grafted from the original exist, and these blossom twice a year, in May and at Christmas. The blossoms of the Christmas shoots are usually much smaller than the May ones and do not produce any haws. Plants grown from the haws do not retain the characteristics of the parent stem
LinkSecond I am not seeing anyone show how this was anti Christian vandalism. What most people say is that it was most likely inter Christian vandalism with some or other presbyterian person who thinks that the tree is a symbol of paganism in Christianity doing the deed, they have done it before. It is plausable that some kind of wiccan hippy or something did it as there are a few in old Glastonbury but not sure where else you are looking for in terms of guilty parties.
The tree and the Abby have a rather direct connection though with why the US has no seperation of state and religion in its constitution. They became involved in the series of struggles known as the '
wars of the three kingdoms'. Started when the king of England and Scotland tried to impose his episcopalian religion on his Scottish subjects using English money and troops.
A chair was thrown in Edinburgh over the kings brand of christianity and that sparked riots and rebillion across Scotalnd, in trying to raise taxes for that war the English protestants and presbyterians refused the money and the king and parliament went to war. After years of bloodshed parliament ruled the country and there you do not need to look to a new taliban for the cancelling of Christmas and burning of churches and abbeys. Cromwells troops did that with vigour including cutting down this very tree and desecrating the abbey. After the collapse of the religous government the monarchy was restored and religious loons were exiled to the outer wastelands of the nacsent British Empire on the western coast of the Americas. When it came their turn to rebell against kings they kept in mind the horrors of Cromwells wars and it is mentioned by those establishing the constitution.
If one wants to see the consaquencies of not having a seperation of state and religion one merely need look at the lands the English used to exile people too before the Americas, Ireland and specifically the nothern province of Ulster. You may have heard of this as Nothern Ireland where the descendents of those exiles still fight to this day over religion and ethnicity.
Anyway Glastonbury is a strange place full of legends and a kind of spiritual heart of Englishness. At sports events crowds now sing Jerusalem as an English national anthem and that song is about the abbey at Glastonbury and its legends, it is a heavily symbolic piece about establishing a new city on the hill in England, a land of God and charity. My personal connection with Glastonbury is a music festival run by an old farmer, sort of like Pops if he was mates with everyone from Led Zepplin to Radiohead, Michael Eavis. I have been going to his farm for his rather odd music festival for many years now.
Wow am I ever getting off topic. Anyway no anti christian vandalism at Glastonbury, no 2000 year old tree and yes the seperation of state and church is a good thing. And as for political correctness well Stewart Lee says it better than me.
Stewart Lee on political corectness
by Tanada » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 06:53:04
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '
')
WND is a corrosive mixture of religion and political conspiracy theories. They're way off on the fringe beyond Glenn Beck.
Apparently it's not
too way off on the fringe, there seems to be some meeting of minds here:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hile I don't agree with everything she wrote I found this piece of writing compelling and thought provoking.
I look around myself and see dead canaries everywhere as our culture is going through spasms of change. Apparently some people can not understand that without attaching massive conspiracy theories as to why our culture is changing, however I am not one of them.
by Tanada » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 07:47:07
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '
')Ok first up the tree was not 2000 years old.
That particular cutting of it is supposed to have been planted in the 50s, the older tree has died several times in the past and cuttings of it used to renew the 'miricle tree'.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The tree in the grounds of the abbey was pronounced dead in June 1991, and cut down the following February.[21] However, many cuttings were taken from it before its destruction. The pre-1991 thorn in the grounds of Glastonbury Abbey is said to be a cutting from the original plant which was planted in secret after the original was destroyed. Now only trees budded or grafted from the original exist, and these blossom twice a year, in May and at Christmas. The blossoms of the Christmas shoots are usually much smaller than the May ones and do not produce any haws.
LinkSecond I am not seeing anyone show how this was anti Christian vandalism. What most people say is that it was most likely inter Christian vandalism with some or other presbyterian person who thinks that the tree is a symbol of paganism in Christianity doing the deed, they have done it before. It is plausible that some kind of wiccan hippy or something did it as there are a few in old Glastonbury but not sure where else you are looking for in terms of guilty parties.
Wow am I ever getting off topic. Anyway no anti christian vandalism at Glastonbury, no 2000 year old tree and yes the separation of state and church is a good thing. And as for political correctness well Stewart Lee says it better than me.
Stewart Lee on political correctness Two issues with the portion of your post I quoted
First off how do you count the age of something like a tree that genetically is identical to its parent? More than that it is a rooted cutting from the parent so in one sense it is the parent growing in a new location. What makes it so complicated is that the parent has been spread out to multiple locations over a long period of time, some grown from retrieved root mass of the original and others grown from grafts onto other root stock. So in one way the tree damaged and possibly killed was at least 400 years old while in another it was 50 or 51 because it was grafted onto something else.
Secondly I agree separation of church and state is a very good thing! However when a Christian religious symbol, which this tree is, is vandalized no matter if it is Anglican vs Catholic or Wiccan vs Christian it is anti-Christian. The New Testament has a command directly from Christ himself not to oppress 'fellow travelers' who do good in His name.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mark 9:39-41', '3')9 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,
40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
Nowhere does Christ tell us to destroy something important to someone else physically that I can recall off the top of my head, instead He commands us to argue against evil and to persuade (NOT Coerce) others to do away with their own things. Look at Acts 19:19 for example, the believers brought their own things forward and destroyed them, they did not rampage the library or the neighbors and destroy other peoples or the common held items and books.
Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ, every person calling themselves a Christian is to judge themselves and improve themselves and to help others, not judge others and demand help from them. This makes it the antithesis of Marxist-Leninist thought where the collective is elevated above the person. In a collective system it is demanded that we help those who need it through state action, which removes the personal connection and feeling of charity we have when we give to those worse off than ourselves. When someone is telling you to Give for the Greater Good what they usually mean is give it to ME and I will pass it out for my own aggrandizement.
by Cog » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 14:00:21
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'I') wonder why bible-peddlers always assume people talk about "their" god any time anybody mentions the word. Why not any other deity, out of 6000-7000 recorded ones and probably 30 000 unrecorded? Lithuanians alone have like 200 gods. What was the chance Ludi meant Jewish god out of all those
Because of context. Ludi had quoted this verse:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;But I say unto you... whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire"
MAT 5:22.
If he had been talking about a different God, he wouldn't have quoted a New Testament verse. But thank you for your help Pretorian. I'll keep you in mind if I need any further help with all those thousands of other "gods".
by Pretorian » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 14:14:36
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', ' ') $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'I') wonder why bible-peddlers always assume people talk about "their" god any time anybody mentions the word. Why not any other deity, out of 6000-7000 recorded ones and probably 30 000 unrecorded? Lithuanians alone have like 200 gods. What was the chance Ludi meant Jewish god out of all those
Because of context. Ludi had quoted this verse:
my bad. Neverthless, usually i am right about this.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'B')ut thank you for your help Pretorian. I'll keep you in mind if I need any further help with all those thousands of other "gods".
Denigrate them all you want , still Ragutis (god of beer and mead) and Austėja (goddess of bees) have as much validity as your own "god". And between two of them , they have twice as much. Sorry, but I do like to shove some logic into bigot's faces. Some of them would have preferred if I used excrement instead, but I am allergic to latex so no can do.
by Oneaboveall » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 15:23:22
I found this quote on a message board and thought it germane to this topic. It raises some good points:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think it comes down to America's continued reliance on the most childish sects of Christianity. If you watch Americans talk about religion you would have to come to the conclusion that God or Jesus was some sort of bizarre combination of Santa Claus and the bogeyman. Jesus apparently died so that he could intervene in the outcome of high school football games, monday morning staff meetings at car dealerships and act as an all purpose medical service and digestive aid. Meanwhile, God who managed to make a universe several billion light years across, has nothing better to do than torture liberals, criminals and gay people for all eternity.
If you grow up believing THAT it isn't a stretch to believe the pablum handed out by our politicians, advertisers and "news" media.
Last edited by
Oneaboveall on Sun 12 Dec 2010, 15:24:11, edited 1 time in total.
When the banksters want something, our policymakers move with the speed of Mercury and the determination of Ares. It’s only when the rest of us need something that there is paralysis.
How free are we today with the dominance of globalist capital and militarized security apparatus?
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by dorlomin » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 15:58:59
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ, every person calling themselves a Christian is to judge themselves and improve themselves and to help others, not judge others and demand help from them.
That is your personal view on christianity, others have very different interpretations of it. Quite contrary in fact, others emphisise the comon bond of 'the church' as the antithisis to western individualism leading to greed.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'T')his makes it the antithesis of Marxist-Leninist thought where the collective is elevated above the person.
Leninism tended to be about the party and the state in practice not the good of the collective. It was an ad hoc affair cobbled together during the civil war with the whites and then the killing of off all other revolutionary movements, most notably the sailors at Kronstadt.
The needs of the collective have been entrenched in much of Christianities history, monastic orders being a good example.
by PrestonSturges » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 16:14:38
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ, every person calling themselves a Christian is to judge themselves and improve themselves and to help others, not judge others and demand help from them.
That is your personal view on christianity, others have very different interpretations of it. Quite contrary in fact, others emphisise the comon bond of 'the church' as the antithisis to western individualism leading to greed.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'T')his makes it the antithesis of Marxist-Leninist thought where the collective is elevated above the person.
Leninism tended to be about the party and the state in practice not the good of the collective. It was an ad hoc affair cobbled together during the civil war with the whites and then the killing of off all other revolutionary movements, most notably the sailors at Kronstadt.
The needs of the collective have been entrenched in much of Christianities history, monastic orders being a good example.
Indeed, the people who are making the case that Christianity is about the individual and not the group these days seem to lean towards isolated, authoritarian, and distinctly cult like beliefs.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
1 Corinthians 13:13
by Outcast_Searcher » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 16:55:30
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')I am not anti-Christian mostly. Except when the Christians are hateful and ignorant.
Well said. Now, substitute "X" for Christian, and you have a reasonable position that I suspect most centrists would generally agree with.
The key word being reasonable of course.
Since it is difficult to get people to agree on ANYTHING, naturally getting them to agree on what "reasonable" even is will be difficult to impossible, depending on the audience.
It's those darn filters we all have (and most won't readily admit), that cause us to see the world in a certain way. Good luck getting people to be reasonable about those filters.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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