Isn't this a spam-copy of your 'population taboo' thread Monte?
Here's a brief of points I made there which I believe you ignored completely.
1. No clear sign that peakoil is now
2. Most oil today is wasted utterly - at least 90%, so we've got plenty of redundancy to work through.
3. Plenty of alternatives to fossil. Nuclear, solar, geothermal, ocean.
4. Demographic wealth paradox - a very modest amount of wealth distrubution and the reproduction rate of the population goes below 2.
5. Poverty and it's cofactor - high population growth rate, is under control of the world elite. It exists because they want it to exist.
Are you purposely trying to generate fear and panic over a non-crisis \ orchestrated crisis ?
“the urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it.” - H L Mencken
PeakOil is You
Liebig's Law of the Minimum Pt. 1
Re: Liebig’s Law of the Minimum
by meemoe_uk » Sun 27 Dec 2009, 12:34:01
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Re: Liebig’s Law of the Minimum
by Ludi » Sun 27 Dec 2009, 13:26:22
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('meemoe_uk', '
')5. Poverty and it's cofactor - high population growth rate, is under control of the world elite. It exists because they want it to exist.
Are you purposingly trying to generate fear and panic over non-situation ?
')5. Poverty and it's cofactor - high population growth rate, is under control of the world elite. It exists because they want it to exist.
Are you purposingly trying to generate fear and panic over non-situation ?
Why do you feel control of the world population by the elites is a "non-situation"? Do you feel these elites are benign and high population and poverty are good things?
BTW "purposingly" is not a word.
- Ludi
Re: Liebig’s Law of the Minimum
by evilgenius » Mon 28 Dec 2009, 12:13:48
I don't think there is a world elite. I believe the only thinking that rises to that level, both proximally and intellectually, is that of the nation state after its own self-interest. In fact, no group seeking power would survive in the face of either the scrutiny of the most powerful nation states, or groups of nation states aligned in communal self-interest, unless they proceeded to work within and not without the system. Simply, if their interests were perceived to be potentially at odds with that of the state they would be destroyed or wrangled in.
World elite fantasies are the stuff of James Bond movies.
World elite fantasies are the stuff of James Bond movies.
When it comes down to it, the people will always shout, "Free Barabbas." They love Barabbas. He's one of them. He has the same dreams. He does what they wish they could do. That other guy is more removed, more inscrutable. He makes them think. "Crucify him."
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Re: Liebig’s Law of the Minimum
by Mastodon » Tue 29 Dec 2009, 04:40:11
One of my favourite biological twists.
Try this, Liebigs Law of the minimum states a spp will increase in a given environment until it reaches the minimum availability of some necessary resource, it could be water, soil, selenium, potassium or whatever….consider another group of this same spp inhabits a separate environment with naturally a different limiting resource so its population will reach a different level. This is stable, both populations have reached their local sustainable levels. Now consider them homo saps and trade begins between the two groups, needless to say the trade will enable the removal of limiting minimums (trade you potassium for the water or whatever) so the population of both areas will increase above the locally sustainable limit. Trade is transportation and 96% of all transportation is crude oil. When the oil goes down so does the transportation so does the population.
Liebigs Law will bite big time
Try this, Liebigs Law of the minimum states a spp will increase in a given environment until it reaches the minimum availability of some necessary resource, it could be water, soil, selenium, potassium or whatever….consider another group of this same spp inhabits a separate environment with naturally a different limiting resource so its population will reach a different level. This is stable, both populations have reached their local sustainable levels. Now consider them homo saps and trade begins between the two groups, needless to say the trade will enable the removal of limiting minimums (trade you potassium for the water or whatever) so the population of both areas will increase above the locally sustainable limit. Trade is transportation and 96% of all transportation is crude oil. When the oil goes down so does the transportation so does the population.
Liebigs Law will bite big time
"At some point in the not too distant future, mother nature will initiate bankruptcy proceedings against the standing crop of human flesh". Catton Overshoot
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Think the Earth is finite? Think again
by Carlhole » Sat 11 Dec 2010, 12:45:32
Spiked
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]When modern Malthusians insist that resources are finite, they only expose their historical illiteracy, misanthropy and social pessimism.
The main Malthusian idea I think we should challenge is the idea that resources are finite. The idea that the Earth itself is finite. The idea that we live on a finite planet and therefore we can only have a certain number of people, living in a certain number of homes, eating a certain amount of food.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]When modern Malthusians insist that resources are finite, they only expose their historical illiteracy, misanthropy and social pessimism.
The main Malthusian idea I think we should challenge is the idea that resources are finite. The idea that the Earth itself is finite. The idea that we live on a finite planet and therefore we can only have a certain number of people, living in a certain number of homes, eating a certain amount of food.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ecause it seems to me that the population-control lobby’s obsession with finiteness really exposes what it is all about. It reveals the historical illiteracy and the social pessimism that underpin the pseudo-scientific movement of Malthusianism. The Malthusians’ focus on finiteness explains firstly why they are always wrong about everything; secondly why they are so misanthropic.
On the first point, Malthusians are simply wrong to say that resources are fixed, that we can measure and predict when they will run out. It seems commonsensical to say that the Earth is finite, and a bit mad to say that it isn’t, but it’s important to recognise how fluid and changeable resources are. It’s important to recognise that the usefulness and longevity of a resource is determined as much by us – by the level of social development we have reached – as it is by the existence of that resource in the first place.
A short essay written by a Brit. But if he were a Yank, he'd be a Republican. And this is the sort of refreshing perspective that Tea Party Republicans will bring to American economic policy.
You won't hear them crow about Richard Heinberg and his idea that economic growth is ending, or that we must "Power Down" to save ourselves from a looming die-off due to the dire consequences of peak oil. You won't hear them nag on and on about population overshoot and the Club of Rome. No, I'm afraid you have to run to the other side of the political spectrum for any of that.
- Carlhole
Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again
by scas » Sat 11 Dec 2010, 12:55:22
We are "wrong about everything and misanthropic". Hard to argue with that.
He is right that resources are fluid and have a past and a future.
The past of oil is organisms and sunlight. Their future is in atmospheric gases.
The past of soil nutrients is rock and dead organisms. Their future is at the bottom of the ocean and in our landfills.
The past of arable land is forests and soil ecosystems. The future of that arable land is.....under concrete. Or desert.
The past of our freshwater is in glaciers and groundwater. The future is in the ocean.
The past of organisms is life and evolution. The future is extinction.
He is right that resources are fluid and have a past and a future.
The past of oil is organisms and sunlight. Their future is in atmospheric gases.
The past of soil nutrients is rock and dead organisms. Their future is at the bottom of the ocean and in our landfills.
The past of arable land is forests and soil ecosystems. The future of that arable land is.....under concrete. Or desert.
The past of our freshwater is in glaciers and groundwater. The future is in the ocean.
The past of organisms is life and evolution. The future is extinction.
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Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again
by eXpat » Sat 11 Dec 2010, 13:09:32
Interesting, i haven´t read such a load of rubbish in a long, long , looong time (and that is including Oily and Anti posts, so that accounts for something), I actually took the time to read the full article.
Some pearls
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t seems very clear to me that today, still, the main problem we face is absolutely social rather than natural. We now live under a cult of sustainability, a social and political framework which says that we should never overhaul what exists and should instead make do with the world as it is. The idea of sustainability is anti-exploration, anti-experimentation, anti-risk – all the qualities we need if we are going to make the kind of breakthroughs that earlier generations made with coal and uranium and other resources. In contrast to the past, today human society is accommodating to social limitations, and accepting the idea that they are natural, rather than trying to break through them. The Malthusian mindset is winning, and that is a tragedy for all of us.
Some pearls
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t seems very clear to me that today, still, the main problem we face is absolutely social rather than natural. We now live under a cult of sustainability, a social and political framework which says that we should never overhaul what exists and should instead make do with the world as it is. The idea of sustainability is anti-exploration, anti-experimentation, anti-risk – all the qualities we need if we are going to make the kind of breakthroughs that earlier generations made with coal and uranium and other resources. In contrast to the past, today human society is accommodating to social limitations, and accepting the idea that they are natural, rather than trying to break through them. The Malthusian mindset is winning, and that is a tragedy for all of us.
Cult of sustainability????? on the contrary, this is the most wasteful society ever! We are proudly unleashing just in some centuries a Permian-level extintion when nature takes several thousands of years to achieve that.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is a spectacularly one-sided view of people. Because we don’t only use resources; we also create them. We are not only consumers; we are also producers. In fact, I would argue that we have realised the potential of this planet. Without us it would just be another ball spinning through space stuffed with useless coal and pointless uranium. We extracted that coal and uranium and made something amazing with it: modern human society. We created the social conditions in which the Earth’s resources could be used to their full potential; we created the means for extracting and transforming those resources; we created cities, workplaces and homes on the back of those resources; and every time, we managed to get more and more stuff from fewer resources and created new resources along the way.
That´s right, we create! rubish and waste that is, we should be proud of it!, i didn´t know we have fulfilled earth's potential, plundering its resources and creating mountains of waste with it (we are creating even islands of it, checked it in another threads).
Brendan O’Neill I salute you, you have put to shame all the residents trolls in this forum and most of others all over the web.
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
“You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand
George Bernard Shaw
“You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand
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That´s what the environment is out there for, to make a buck out of it!
