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Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Lore » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 17:19:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 'Y')ou've moved on before mos...how did it work out for you? Why did you come back?


Probabaly to bug the crap out of you Shorty, why did you come back?
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 17:21:50

Come on Shorty, tell us, pleaze tell us..... :)
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Daniel_Plainview » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 17:22:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 'I') hate to say this, but perhaps the tedium of watching peak oilers have at it, mostly without even involving peak oil anymore, is wearing thin, and maybe its time to move on.


Xeno/Shorty reminds me of the alien in the Star Trek episode "Day of the Dove" ... an alien that feeds on tension and whose sole purpose is to promote animosity and dissension.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku-DTa0U ... 9&index=81

In the end, the alien was driven off the Enterprise once the alien's true motives were discovered.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '[')color=#BF0040]maybe its time to move on[/color].


Make it so.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby anador » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 17:39:27

Alot of Romans thought that way too.... they were totally bewildered when the barbarians came into their triclinium and proceeded to rape murder and pillage.

They probably wrote strongly worded letters chastising their friends as well.

How dare you speak badly of Emporer Honorius!?

Rome? Burning? Show me the proof!

Everything is perfectly fine!

I have seen no evidence to support these theories of "Barabrians". Nor could I imagine their anger caused by us!

Et Tu Shorte?
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 21:46:36

Paralells with ancient Rome are abundant.
The USA is likely to default on social contract before or simultaneously to financial default.
What ratio of ex middle classers will tolerate utter degradation as compared to choosing to go out in a 'blaze of glory'?
How many will go that far before FEMA camps are fully utilized?
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Lore » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 22:05:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'P')aralells with ancient Rome are abundant.
The USA is likely to default on social contract before or simultaneously to financial default.
What ratio of ex middle classers will tolerate utter degradation as compared to choosing to go out in a 'blaze of glory'?
How many will go that far before FEMA camps are fully utilized?


For our part in the U.S. we don’t really blame our government for lack of jobs, that's the private sectors business, only the policies that will help or hinder them. We want our government to stay out of the process, (ie: see Tea Party Platform). That’s why you don’t see rioting in the streets like England and France, or what’s typical in Europe and other countries.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 22:08:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 'Y')ou've moved on before mos...how did it work out for you? Why did you come back?


Probabaly to bug the crap out of you Shorty, why did you come back?


You know, I suspect cornies are closet doomers. Cuz you don't see this kind of thing anywhere else.. have you ever seen an atheist go to church for YEARS? I mean.. what's the point? And I think veganism is sort of silly, but I'd never go sign up to a vegan forum and argue with them about it.

(I'm still glad we have cornies though, prevents groupthink.. I just don't get THEIR reason for being here)
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 22:27:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anador', 'A')lot of Romans thought that way too.... they were totally bewildered when the barbarians came into their triclinium and proceeded to rape murder and pillage.

They probably wrote strongly worded letters chastising their friends as well.

How dare you speak badly of Emporer Honorius!?

Rome? Burning? Show me the proof!


The Senate handled the city of Rome. There was really nothing in it for the emperor to help them out (the capital was in Ravenna). Also, the Visigoths were all mixed up with the Romans.. Alaric didn't want to destroy Rome, he wanted a generalship and appointments for family.

Honorius declined, insulted him, and tried to sneak troops into Rome.. so the visigoths sieged the city. Honorius thought he'd have some time since the goths couldn't breach the walls but then a darn slave opened the gates and that was that. The Romans had already converted them to Christianity, so the sack wasn't too bad.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 22:38:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anador', 'A')lot of Romans thought that way too.... they were totally bewildered when the barbarians came into their triclinium and proceeded to rape murder and pillage.

They probably wrote strongly worded letters chastising their friends as well.

How dare you speak badly of Emporer Honorius!?

Rome? Burning? Show me the proof!


The Senate handled the city of Rome. There was really nothing in it for the emperor to help them out (the capital was in Ravenna). Also, the Visigoths were all mixed up with the Romans.. Alaric didn't want to destroy Rome, he wanted a generalship and appointments for family.

Honorius declined, insulted him, and tried to sneak troops into Rome.. so the visigoths sieged the city. Honorius thought he'd have some time since the goths couldn't breach the walls but then a darn slave opened the gates and that was that. The Romans had already converted them to Christianity, so the sack wasn't too bad.


THis is a great dicsussion, but is Alaric the barbarian who sacked Rome supposed to be seen as a metaphor for the climate change supporters or for the climate change deniers?
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby mos6507 » Sun 05 Dec 2010, 22:57:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jmnemonic', '
')So, they are trying to prepare us as best they can


I really see this as nothing but idle speculation. There is no hard evidence that "they know but they just can't tell us". I'm not saying it can't be true, but it's unknowable. You get some vague hearsay which is no more credible than your theories. That's about it.

This is one thing I'd REALLY like to get out of Wikileaks.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Questionmark » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 00:42:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jmnemonic', '
')So, they are trying to prepare us as best they can


I really see this as nothing but idle speculation. There is no hard evidence that "they know but they just can't tell us". I'm not saying it can't be true, but it's unknowable. You get some vague hearsay which is no more credible than your theories. That's about it.

This is one thing I'd REALLY like to get out of Wikileaks.


Steven Chu had publicly discussed peak oil before joining the administration. And the military itself recently released a report on the topic. How could they not know? I would say that every administration since Nixon + Schlesinger has been aware of the issue.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 00:51:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', '
')Steven Chu had publicly discussed peak oil before joining the administration.


Yes....Chu said Peak Oil would occur sometime from 10-40 years in the future. Even the IEA now admits it has already occurred in 2006----4 years ago. :roll:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', '
') And the military itself recently released a report on the topic.


Yes....the German military. :roll:

Mos is right....there is no sign that this administration has a clue that global oil production has peaked and that the economy (and everything else) are in deep doo-doo because of peak oil.
Last edited by Plantagenet on Mon 06 Dec 2010, 00:54:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Questionmark » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 00:53:15

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/52493

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he U.S. Secretary of Energy, Steven Chu, knows and understands the issues of global peak oil production. During a talk he gave in March 2005 as director of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, a U.S. Department of Energy National Laboratory, Steven Chu advanced the hypothesis of an imminent decline in world production of liquid fuels (ppt 3.6 MB, see p.16) .

Interesting: Steven Chu at the time chose to put forward the thesis of Colin Campbell, founder of the Association for the Study of Peak Oil (ASPO), a research group composed of academics, and especially leading engineers who previously had worked for the oil industry. The arguments of ASPO have been considered as overly pessimistic by most official sources (firms, governments, etc..)


And Schlesinger was aware of M. King Hubberts ideas as they were coming out. Why do you think that every single president since Nixon has urged Americans to reduce their reliance on oil? The problem is that none of them were willing to take on the issue because it's a. political suicide and b. none of them expected it an imminent threat until recently and now it's too late to do anything.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 01:02:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', 'T')he U.S. Secretary of Energy, Steven Chu.... a talk he gave in March 2005 as director of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, a U.S. Department of Energy National Laboratory, Steven Chu advanced the hypothesis of an imminent decline in world production of liquid fuels (ppt 3.6 MB, see p.16) .


Yes....The powerpoint slide shows that Chu said Peak Oil would occur sometime from 10-40 years in the future. Do the math...Chu thinks peak oil may not occur until 2045. Meanwhile people like Colin Campbell say the data shows it has already occurred, and even the IEA now admits peak oil has already occurred in 2006----.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Questionmark » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 01:05:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', '
')Steven Chu had publicly discussed peak oil before joining the administration.


Yes..Chu said Peak Oil would occur sometime from 10-40 years in the future. Even the IEA now admits it has already occurred in 2006----4 years ago. :roll:


You claimed that you believe the administration does not fully comprehend the issue, that is clearly false. Like I said above, they were aware of it and the implications but chose not to address it for various reason until the time for action had passed. Now there's little they can do about it and so bringing it to the public's attention would be counter productive. I recently had the idea that the actual reason behind the Iraq war may very well have been to secure future supplies of oil for U.S. consumption. It makes sense, invade before shortages become an issue and bring Iraqi fields to their full potential at around the time we start to feel the pain and reserve the oil for our own use as opposed to selling it on the open markets.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', '
') And the military itself recently released a report on the topic.


Yes....the German military. :roll:


Uhm hello?

http://www.cnas.org/files/documents/pub ... hemore.pdf

Remember this?
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby Questionmark » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 01:09:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Questionmark', 'T')he U.S. Secretary of Energy, Steven Chu.... a talk he gave in March 2005 as director of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, a U.S. Department of Energy National Laboratory, Steven Chu advanced the hypothesis of an imminent decline in world production of liquid fuels (ppt 3.6 MB, see p.16) .


Yes....The powerpoint slide shows that Chu said Peak Oil would occur sometime from 10-40 years in the future. Do the math...Chu thinks peak oil may not occur until 2045. Meanwhile people like Colin Campbell say the data shows it has already occurred, and even the IEA now admits peak oil has already occurred in 2006----.


This is a different point from the one you made earlier. And besides, do you really think that his understanding of peak oil hasn't evolved in the last six years? The government's lack of action stems from a broken political system, not a lack of understanding.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby diemos » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 01:21:26

I went to a scientific conference once where there was a mildly controversial topic being talked about by someone who was in the then current administration. He came to the auditorium, stood up at the lectern and said, "I'm sorry, but I've been told that I am now high enough in the administration that anything I say will be construed as official policy and I'm no longer entitled to have opinions of my own no matter how many disclaimers I utter."

What government officials say and what they believe have, at best, only a nodding acquaintance with one another.
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Re: Jobless America Can't Survive $90 Oil

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 11:13:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diemos', '
')What government officials say and what they believe have, at best, only a nodding acquaintance with one another.


Which only leaves us to go in endless circles wondering what they really think. It's ultimately a pointless exercise. Does it make anybody feel better to think that they "know" we're FUBAR but just won't say it? It's like-- does a tree fall in the woods and nobody's there does it make a sound?

So far I think Chu has only been hit in the head with a straight on peak oil question once, and his answer was, as Planty said, to shrug it off as far enough in the future that we can technofix our way out of it with magic nano-fairy dust. No powerdown necessary.

Obama himself has never had to field a peak oil question. He's made vague statements that might be construed as accepting geological depletion "We can't drill our way out of the problem". But is he giving a 21st century Sweater Speech? Hell no. It's still all about cash for caulkers and the Green Jobs boom and technology saves the day.

I don't see why we shouldn't just accept that their faith in "innovation" is genuine. I mean, it's not like hardcore die-off doomerism is easy for most people to embrace, especially those in positions of power who have a hero complex that they can somehow save the day.
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