[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd yes, I feel larger populations with hierarchical structure in which people are forced to work much harder and suffer from widescale warfare, disease, famine and pestilence are "evil."

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')Theres no natural cycle that we can't replicate in an engineered fasion to more appropriately suit our needs, and thats been demonstrated from the sealed jars with algae and shrimp to ridiculous projects such as biosphere 2.

[Ebyss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')Wonderful analogy. Why would we want to make something as novel and useless as a butterfly from scratch. I dont think you understand what I'm suggesting at all.

[holmes]

wow this thread has now been transformed into a "Magic" one. So now we ned to miraculaousy become magicians. creating artifical ecosystems that support ever increasing population densities. LOL. this is INSANE! So we are now at the point in creating sysnthetic ecosystems and farmlands. Ok we need to be lichen and moss on steroids now. shoot i never knew humans could be every level of the ecological chain. Hell lets jsut evapaorate the planet, hjang suspended in space and start form scratch. We could use our highly advanced space ships that blow up regualry to do this. we could piece together the columbia and those other highly advanced rigs and get on it. Hit it. Ill watch and get evaporated. abra cadabra. viola!

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'A')n excellent solution was offered some months ago.

Jupiter has lots of methane. All we need to do is send spaceships to Jupiter, skim off methane, and come back to Earth. The elegance of the idea lies within its simplicity.

[arocoun]

Dezakin--Or maybe you just choose to see the world as a place where only a strong and brutal minority can be happy? Your probably one of those Darwinists who, while never actually seeing or experiencing nature outside of your brutal and disgusting society, just assumes that the whole world is a battle arena for the strong to conquer and exploit the weak.

Well, from experience, I can tell you without hesitation that most Darwinists entirely overestimate the role of competition and exploitation, and underestimate the role of harmony and equilibrium, in the natural order of things. It will never be perfect, but the world doesn't have to be nearly as brutal as you want it to be, unless you make it so. Indeed, humanity itself could prove to be much less brutal if it wasn't taken over by the very few societies that wished to grow, like cancer, at the expense of their own happiness and others'.



entropyfails--Interesting. I've never thought of agricultural society in the way you described it. It would be a much better world (especially in places like Africa and India) if we went back to K-selection.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')k, so you got the fact that it is an analogy, and yet you failed to make the leap from "butterfly" to "wheat" or "apples" or "meat" or any food that you rely on to live. I don't think you understand what you are suggesting.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', 'A')fter giving the "extraterrestrial energy" matter some thought, ... In any event, this radiation surely represents a great quantity of energy--solar energy--that is not available to us on the surface of the earth. But could it be harnessed in space?
Or could we find a way to open up a portion of the earth to allow some of this intense radiation to hit the surface, and harness its energy here?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'T')he real world fifty or one hundred years from now will look like magic; though for many ecologists, dystopian, engineered and entirely unromantic.

[clv101]

No time for a full response... but here are some ideas:

Peak Oil 'To Do' List: Why We Should Do These Things Anyway
http://resourceinsights.blogspot.com/20 ... ld-do.html

[Ludi]

That's a great list, civ101!

[Ludi]

There is no "proof" but there are indications. GWB was able to get people behind the idea of war mainly because most people didn't need to change even the littlest aspect of their life in order to support it. They didn't need to do anything but stand by and watch it happen. There was no "mobilization" to speak of. Combating the PO problem will need to be very different from that, don't you think?

[reggieUK]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sys1', '-') Building a huge mirror in space to stop lighting cities the whole night and improve photosynthesis.
- Contacting E.T. and asking for help.
- Human engineering to improve our intelligence to find a solution to peak oil.
- Building a tractor beam to extract directly hydrogen from the sun.
- Picking up a black hole to get back in 1970 to change our way of life.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')here is no "proof" but there are indications. GWB was able to get people behind the idea of war mainly because most people didn't need to change even the littlest aspect of their life in order to support it. They didn't need to do anything but stand by and watch it happen. There was no "mobilization" to speak of. Combating the PO problem will need to be very different from that, don't you think?

[Z]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', ' ')[...] people will be willing to put up with quite a lot of hardship in order to retain as much as possible of their current lifestyle.

[clv101]

Agriculture is going to be under great pressure in the future, with water being one of the limiting factors. We need to improve the water productivity of farming irrigation should be via drip irrigation rather than surface canals or sprinklers, this can lead to a water productivity gain of over 100% in many crops. Shifting crops from rice to wheat also improves water productivity. Protein efficiency should also be raised by reducing meat consumption and then meat is consumed it should be fish or poultry which are more than twice as efficient at producing meat as cattle.

Energy productivity can be increased. Just looking at the US, improving energy efficiency standards for house hold appliances, more stringent air-co efficiency standards, using tax credits and energy codes to improve the efficiency of new buildings, raising the efficiency of existing buildings.

Banning the sale and manufacturing of incandescent light bulbs could be complete is three years and reduce energy consumption without reducing productivity by at least 10%.

Banning non-refillable drinks containers, a reused able glass bottle takes about 10% the energy per use as an aluminium can (even when the can is recycled). The fuel efficiency of vehicles could be increased, doubled in the US over a decade or so.

Wind energy, in densely populated Europe off-shore wind farms could produce the majority of energy required, no only is wind clean with few of the externalities that bug fossil fuels it’s also cheap. Also photovoltaics. Over since 1995, wind and PV energy use has increased at around 30% per year.

Geothermal, globally there is now 8GW of geothermal capacity, a 37% increase over the 5.8GW present in 1990. The direct use of geothermal for heat is worth another 12GW electrical equivalent. Geothermal is also ideal for heating greenhouses to extend the growing season, increases agriculture productivity.

How fast can we build a new technology solution? It took 12 years for cell phones to dominate the market, rising from 11m compared to 519m land lines in 1990 to 1.2 billion compared to 1.1 billion land lines in 2002. The cell phone market grew 50% per year from 1990, wind energy has been growing at 30% per year since 1995.

If the US doubled wind capacity each year for 7 years wind would be the number one source of energy, this is possible. 2001 saw a 67% increase. Total cost of such a build would be around $640bn, $90bn a year (compared with the $200bn Americans spend on gasoline each year).

US wartime mobilisation suggests this is possible. Between 1942 and 1944 the US produced 229,600 aircraft. In 1942 the manufacture of cars (previously 3-4m a year) was banned along with driving for pleasure. In 1941 the US produced almost 4 million cars, in 1942 24,000 tanks and 17,000 panes were manufactured. In 1940 the US produced 4,000 aircraft, in 1942 48,000 were produced. 1942 also saw an outright ban on the sale of private cars and some rationing of tires, fuel, sugar etc

This speed to transition is stunning – we need to harness this kind of power to stop making SVUs and start making hybrids and renewable energy technology infrastructure.

Population growth is an important area – women need access to family planning services. History says population growth can be stopped quickly. Throughout the 1980’s Iran’s population growth rate was 4.4% almost the biological maximum today the growth rate is around 1%. A programme of education, broadcasts, family planning health houses, religious leaders preaching for smaller families, contraceptive measures and a requirement to take a class in contraception before receiving a marriage licence.

“Let no man say it cannot be done” – President Roosevelt

Much of the above was paraphrased from the 2nd half of Lester R. Brown’s excellent book: Plan B – Rescuing a Planet under stress and a Civilization in Trouble.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2')001 saw a 67% increase.

[clv101]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2')001 saw a 67% increase.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clv101', ' ')7 years of doubling of wind in the US would make wind the most significent source of power -

[clv101]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clv101', ' ')7 years of doubling of wind in the US would make wind the most significent source of power -