[johnmarkos]

Speaking of plans, I provided a skeletal plan here, in the thread, "It's all about footprint." Although it ain't much, I'm no expert, and I don't think the plan is feasible in the current political climate, I offer it again for critique and discussion. As I change my point of view, I'll revise my plan accordingly.

MonteQuest provided an excellent overview of the policy changes he would advocate here, in the thread, "The Big Picture."

[TrueKaiser]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', '
')The solution? The first thing is ask yourself whose opinions you should be giving credibility to. Like are doomsayers selling books & videos? Are they just blowhards with no real knowledge other then how to spin a tale filled with generalities? Do they have any real experience regarding the issues they are spinning or are they just repeating information from select others and missing the big picture? Do they really know what they are talking about, where are their credentials?

[tokyo_to_motueka]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')here is no technology, nor will there ever be, that will have the cheapness, energy density, scalablity, EROEI and physical properties of oil upon which we have built our current modern civilization that supports 6.5 billion people, no matter how much you focus on it. There is no techno-fix that can replace a phantom carrying capacity based upon a one-time treasure chest of non-renewable energies and a mindset of infinite growth in a finite world. Get use to the idea. It is not going away.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', ' ')If technology fixes things, eventually all elements of the ecology only survives on the interest or whim of the children of humanity.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', ' ')Unfortunately, once I got to the "solutions" part of the book, I thought, "Is that all there is?" I feel myself sliding back towards the doomer camp. Where's groundless optimism when you need it?

[Dezakin]

Ludi:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an you give some examples of technology "fixing" ecology? How about an example of technology "fixing" the world climate systems? How is technology "fixing" the fisheries, the soil, the water, the forests?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')Hmm... The plough was sort of the first step.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')hows what little you know about plough agriculture, a total disaster.

[ArimoDave]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')hows what little you know about plough agriculture, a total disaster.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')
The bridge between hunter-gatherer culture to the dawn of civilization was a total disaster in what way?

[katkinkate]

In the development of plough agriculture, many areas were cleared of trees drying out the climate and eventually creating deserts and arid scrub where once forests stood. For example the entire Middle East, northern Africa, and Greece in the past and Brazil, India and SubSaharan Africa in more recent times. Its mostly the trees that make the rain once you're more than about 50 kilometres inland from the ocean.

[eric_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')
We dont need fisheries or forests. We know how to manage soil and water for farm and residential water concerns, from crop cycling to desalination. Climate change, for all its hype and real dangers, presents no real threat to humanity.
(...)

[Dezakin]

Ludi:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')lough agriculture led to populations which expanded

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'S')ounds like a resounding success to me, unless you feel larger populations are inherantly evil. Perhaps you think humanity should never have evolved at all.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
')
Sounds like a resounding success to me, unless you feel larger populations are inherantly evil. Perhaps you think humanity should never have evolved at all.

[Ebyss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/trees_gs.htm

"A forest can return (unlike the sea) 75% of its water to air, "in large enough amounts to form new rain clouds". (Bayard Webster, "Forests' Role in Weather Documented in Amazon", NY Times, July 5, '83). forested areas return ten times as much moisture as bare ground, and twice as much as grasslands. In fact, as far as the atmosphere itself is concerned, "the release of water from the trees and other plants accounts for half, or even more of all moisture returned to air". (Webster) This is a critical finding that adds even more data to the relationship of desertification by deforestation. Clouds form above forests, and such clouds are now mixtures of oceanic and forest water vapour, clearly distinguishable by careful isotopes analysis. The water vapour from forests contain more organic nucleii and plant nutrients than does the 'pure' oceanic water. Oxygen isotopes are measured to determine the forests' contribution, which can be done for any cloud system."

[arocoun]

Dezakin--Are you serious in all that you're saying?! If so, the fact that you see every resource and life on this planet as something to be conquered and exploited leaves me with a strong sense of anger and disgust. You've got to be kidding, or satirizing, or something; otherwise you seem like nothing better than the old slavers of the South, the Indian killers, or the wolf hunters.

[katkinkate]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '.')...Theres no natural cycle that we can't replicate in an engineered fasion to more appropriately suit our needs, and thats been demonstrated from the sealed jars with algae and shrimp to ridiculous projects such as biosphere 2...

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('arocoun', '[')b]Dezakin--Are you serious in all that you're saying?! If so, the fact that you see every resource and life on this planet as something to be conquered and exploited leaves me with a strong sense of anger and disgust. You've got to be kidding, or satirizing, or something; otherwise you seem like nothing better than the old slavers of the South, the Indian killers, or the wolf hunters.

[OilyMon]

Any peak oil book will invariably contain possible solutions to the problem. It's a requirment when compiling literature about a particular state of humanity to end on a positive note. Most published Authors will not get away with what Matt Savinar wrote in his expose on the energy situation around the globe.

I just finished reading another "peak oil" related book: "The End of Oil" and the author seemed to have a firm grasp of the situation and spent the last half of the book wishfully dreaming of the possible means to an end for the goal of sustainability. Most of the problem he maintained, is political.

Say for instance that peak oil repurcussions happened now all at once. Tomorrow you wake up and there's no electricity left from your power plant, your car's on empty and gasoline is $6.00 a gallon or more, there's no food left at the grocery store, water is not pumping out of your faucet and you find yourself stuck in the middle of a concrete jungle, that is polluted and densely populated with people who are going through the same shock as you. What are you priorities?

You need to eat but you will be in direct competition with all the other starving urbanites. You will need water but all the water around you city is not fit to drink. You will need to get the hell out of there but you can't buy gas.

What if you wake up in a city that is powered mostly by wind power and solar, you live close to where you work and your city is relatively self sustained, only shipping luxuries in from outside. The ground water is not polluted and you can bike to almost anywhere. You still need a bit of oil but not nearly as much as you needed before, and can grudginly accept the massive price increases without worrying about maintaining your way of life.

The second scenario is a possibility but it requires a massive mobilization of resources and effort 2 years ago if it's going to have any impact. Government policy is capable of effecting change, and American policy is capable of effecting global change. The United States has done a poor job of leading by example and has been compared exhaustively to the scoolh yard bully; an metaphor that is becoming increasingly accurate - because of America's willingness to use force, and America's complete and utter selfishness.

In short, policy decisions by American leaders can have a profound impact on the "working out" of peak oil, but will never be made because of a corrupt system of government that panders to the wealthy elite who wish to maintain the status quo.

My apologies for the rant. Mother Nature will solve this for us.