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The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Pops » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:08:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'O')ne can only marvel at the possible futures these boom times for science are taking us into.

Carl, you didn't really answer my question as to why you think passing over this threshold and creating what I guess will be a self-aware, self-replicating intelligence far beyond our own is going to be a good thing - not to be too cliche but isn't that kind of Dr. Frankenstein-ish?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby efarmer » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:12:38

Well there was a lot of goats who didn't want to leave mastitis to random chance is my guess.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby davep » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:17:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'T')hese things may affect evolutionary forces if the ability to simulate intelligence gets anywhere. So far there are NO results showing intelligence.


There are NO signs of a slowdown in the rate of sci/tech advancement; nothing that would indicate any sort of civilizational collapse around the corner. One can only marvel at the possible futures these boom times for science are taking us into.


So name any single bit of real progress we've made in artifical intellence recently. Just one. Not speculative ventures, just genuine peer-reviewed progress.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:20:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', ' ')they WERE able to construct from laboratory chemicals a DNA genome sequence based upon a particular organism. They were able to construct this sequence on a computer and implant it into a cleansed cell. The synthetic DNA began to operate as well as natural DNA.


Thanks, but, they did not "construct it in a computer" and then implant it into a cell. They constructed it in the laboratory from chemicals based on the sequence determined by the computer. The sequence was determine on the computer then replicated in the lab THEN implanted in the cell.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:22:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'T')hese things may affect evolutionary forces if the ability to simulate intelligence gets anywhere. So far there are NO results showing intelligence.

There are NO signs of a slowdown in the rate of sci/tech advancement; nothing that would indicate any sort of civilizational collapse around the corner. One can only marvel at the possible futures these boom times for science are taking us into.

So name any single bit of real progress we've made in artifical intellence recently. Just one. Not speculative ventures, just genuine peer-reviewed progress.
Shhhhhhh....there are people trying to ride that shell game into retirement.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:22:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'O')ne can only marvel at the possible futures these boom times for science are taking us into.

Carl, you didn't really answer my question as to why you think passing over this threshold and creating what I guess will be a self-aware, self-replicating intelligence far beyond our own is going to be a good thing - not to be too cliche but isn't that kind of Dr. Frankenstein-ish?


There are plenty of Singularitarians who are afraid it may NOT be a good thing. But they still think it is inevitable. Some say that our huge, interconnected populations are a new evolutionary paradigm. Is THAT a good thing?

I just watch new developments in Science because it's interesting and relevant usually. Speculations about The Singularity and advanced AI or more than just philosophical now that teams of researchers around the world are taking different approaches to emulating human thought/skill/actions/behavior, reverse-engineering insect/animal brains, etc.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby davep » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:25:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', ' ')they WERE able to construct from laboratory chemicals a DNA genome sequence based upon a particular organism. They were able to construct this sequence on a computer and implant it into a cleansed cell. The synthetic DNA began to operate as well as natural DNA.


Thanks, but, they did not "construct it in a computer" and then implant it into a cell. They constructed it in the laboratory from chemicals based on the sequence determined by the computer. The sequence was determine on the computer then replicated in the lab THEN implanted in the cell.


And doing this in no way enhances our ability to create artificial intelligence. It's just creating very basic DNA. How will this help us towards creating AI? Again, it's just WOW! COOL! without any thought as to how this is going to help bring about the singularity. Without AI, it's nothing.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:27:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')And doing this in no way enhances our ability to create artificial intelligence. It's just creating very basic DNA. How will this help us towards creating AI? Again, it's just WOW! COOL! without any thought as to how this is going to help bring about the singularity. Without AI, it's nothing.



It's kind of neat stuff that might ultimately be useful in treating disease, if applied to that end, maybe. But as far as getting closer to AI, I don't see how it relates even remotely to AI. Mocking up some DNA in a lab has nothing to do with AI.

:?:
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:30:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', ' ')they WERE able to construct from laboratory chemicals a DNA genome sequence based upon a particular organism. They were able to construct this sequence on a computer and implant it into a cleansed cell. The synthetic DNA began to operate as well as natural DNA.


Thanks, but, they did not "construct it in a computer" and then implant it into a cell. They constructed it in the laboratory from chemicals based on the sequence determined by the computer. The sequence was determine on the computer then replicated in the lab THEN implanted in the cell.


Like I said, they constructed the DNA sequence on a computer. They then used laboratory techniques to implant this computer-constructed DNA into a cleansed cell.

Thus, scientists are now able to learn how groups of genes interact or make major extensive modifications to a particular genome. In this case, they wanted to discover the absolute minimum number of genes the cell required to perform normal functions.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:32:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t ultimately be useful in treating disease, if applied to that end, maybe. But as far as getting closer to AI, I don't see how it relates even remotely to AI. Mocking up some DNA in a lab has nothing to do with AI.


One issue raised here earlier dealt with relevance to Evolution - that was the DNA part.

Another issue raised dealt with The Singularity - that was the AI part.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby davep » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:34:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t ultimately be useful in treating disease, if applied to that end, maybe. But as far as getting closer to AI, I don't see how it relates even remotely to AI. Mocking up some DNA in a lab has nothing to do with AI.


One issue raised here earlier dealt with relevance to Evolution - that was the DNA part.

Another issue raised dealt with The Singularity - that was the AI part.


So how is the AI part doing? You know, actual progress and stuff (no, not new ventures, REAL EFFING PROGRESS). Because without it your singularity is singularly boned.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:41:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t ultimately be useful in treating disease, if applied to that end, maybe. But as far as getting closer to AI, I don't see how it relates even remotely to AI. Mocking up some DNA in a lab has nothing to do with AI.


One issue raised here earlier dealt with relevance to Evolution - that was the DNA part.

Another issue raised dealt with The Singularity - that was the AI part.


So how is the AI part doing? You know, actual progress and stuff (no, not new ventures, REAL EFFING PROGRESS). Because without it your singularity is singularly boned.



Sticking some DNA in a cell is not necessarily likely to affect evolution. There's no indication such DNA is adaptive. It may well be a spandrel which has no noticeable effect, or it may just wash out of the population (if it ever gets into a population of whatever - bacteria or whatnot) entirely. DNA gets stuck into lab critters all the time but is probably not having a significant effect on evolution at large. So there's no reason to think this experiment is any more significant than any other sticking of DNA into stuff.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby davep » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:43:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t ultimately be useful in treating disease, if applied to that end, maybe. But as far as getting closer to AI, I don't see how it relates even remotely to AI. Mocking up some DNA in a lab has nothing to do with AI.


One issue raised here earlier dealt with relevance to Evolution - that was the DNA part.

Another issue raised dealt with The Singularity - that was the AI part.


So how is the AI part doing? You know, actual progress and stuff (no, not new ventures, REAL EFFING PROGRESS). Because without it your singularity is singularly boned.



Sticking some DNA in a cell is not necessarily likely to affect evolution. There's no indication such DNA is adaptive. It may well be a spandrel which has no noticeable effect, or it may just wash out of the population (if it ever gets into a population of whatever - bacteria or whatnot) entirely. DNA gets stuck into lab critters all the time but is probably not having a significant effect on evolution at large. So there's no reason to think this experiment is any more significant than any other sticking of DNA into stuff.


But! But! It came from a Computer! How cool is that?
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:47:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')
But! But! It came from a Computer! How cool is that?



Um, no, the fake DNA didn't "come from a computer." It was sequenced on a computer -in other words, the recipe was developed by the computer, but the DNA was made in a lab based on the recipe. Computers are really good at crunching information, lots of it. So a computer is good at being a computer. And we're supposed to be impressed? :?:
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby davep » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:48:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')
But! But! It came from a Computer! How cool is that?



Um, no, the fake DNA didn't "come from a computer." It was sequenced on a computer -in other words, the recipe was developed by the computer, but the DNA was made in a lab based on the recipe. Computers are really good at crunching information, lots of it. So a computer is good at being a computer. And we're supposed to be impressed? :?:


Look, it came from a computer, so we're saved. Just deal with it, puny human.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 18:50:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')Look, it came from a computer, so we're saved. Just deal with it, puny human.


You're right! I must bow down before my electronic overlords!
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 19:09:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'S')o how is the AI part doing? You know, actual progress and stuff (no, not new ventures, REAL EFFING PROGRESS). Because without it your singularity is singularly boned.


Building a Brain on a Silicon Chip

By YOUR standards for whether a thing will ever exist in the future: "Is it available at WalMart now?" - I suppose AI fails that one. But nevertheless, it is still being heavily researched.

You can't buy the Blue Brain Project at WalMart or IBM's Almaden Research Center effort either, but those things will probably give rise to new chip and network designs.

Driverless 8,000 journey. Still not available at WalMart yet.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 14 Sep 2010, 20:40:37

Thought some folks might be interested in this comment on the Synthetic Genomics experiment from my sister who used to be a genetic researcher by profession and has published several scientific papers involving the genetic study of retinitis pigmentosa in mice and the genetics of aging:

'The order of the base pairs A-T G-C, the "plans", were done on a computer, but I expect that plan to make the DNA came from all the research on genetics and genomes, not "right out of his head". The strings of DNA that code for genes were produced on a sequencing machine, using nucleotides, that, gosh, are obtained from nature. Life wasn't "created from nothing by man"; a viable cell with its nucleus removed was used, and the DNA, the genes, from the sequencer that would allow it to keep surviving and divide were microinjected into it. This was just putting together technologies that have already existed for awhile. The new part was creating completely artificial genes from their components, not using a template from nature, or genes removed from one organism and put into another.'

:) That's my sis, one smart cookie. :)
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby davep » Wed 15 Sep 2010, 03:14:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'S')o how is the AI part doing? You know, actual progress and stuff (no, not new ventures, REAL EFFING PROGRESS). Because without it your singularity is singularly boned.


Building a Brain on a Silicon Chip

By YOUR standards for whether a thing will ever exist in the future: "Is it available at WalMart now?" - I suppose AI fails that one. But nevertheless, it is still being heavily researched.

You can't buy the Blue Brain Project at WalMart or IBM's Almaden Research Center effort either, but those things will probably give rise to new chip and network designs.

Driverless 8,000 journey. Still not available at WalMart yet.


Where did I mention Walmart? I asked for peer-reviewed AI progress. You haven't provided any. The links you provided are still going from the other end, the ever-speeding up of computational power (whether neurone-like or not). We still need some algorithmic improvement for AI.
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Re: The Independent: "Revenge Of The Nerds"

Unread postby diemos » Wed 15 Sep 2010, 11:21:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'I')t's this kind of blind faith that discredits what you say.


It's truly fascinating to see someone who has adopted science as his religion.

Science=God
Singularity=Messiah
Ed Moses=The Prophet of God

He's a True Believer(TM) in a discipline that requires belief to be subjugated to reason and evidence. Quite a contradiction. And yet he happily goes on believing that any moment now the heavens will part and the singularity will ride down on his white horse to smite the wicked and bring about paradise.
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