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History of American Progressivism through Literature

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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 15:01:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'D')o you consider yourself an "anti-environment" person? And does being anti-environment make you a good person?

By the way you still owe me $1000. :)


I guess it depends on your definition since it has become so politicized. I definitely set an example in my own life but don't think I or anyone has the right to tell the rest of the world what to do, and especially levy "environmental" taxes on them which won't even go to remediate environmental concerns. If you mean an environmentalist like Ted Turner who has five children but promotes one-child policies, or Al Gore who flies in jets around the world all the time and spends $2,400/month on electricity and natural gas, then no, I'm definitely not what they term an "environmentalist". I guess I'd have to be termed a "responsible person".

I haven't forgotten. ;-)
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 15:07:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he best place to have your life savings stolen is by investing in something you heard about through church. Don't forget you are far more likely to be raped, murdered, divorced, or killed by a drunk driver in the heart of the southern bible belt than you are in an area with low church attendance.


I don't know what this has to do with anything. Is this a straw man? I could make a point about bubble gum and it would be just as applicable. The last time I attended church was at the age of 14 when I could finally defy my mother and get away with it. Churches are the biggest and largest concentration of hypocrisy in the history of the world, IMO. They are a man-man construction which attempts to assume and proselytize spiritual principles on others stating that they have the key to the right path, which is inherently antithetical and doomed from its base premise.

But environmentalism in 2010 is a religion itself too now, isn't it? That is why the environmental leaders fail, just like the leaders of religion are found with hookers, cocaine and abusing little boys all the time.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 15:25:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he best place to have your life savings stolen is by investing in something you heard about through church. Don't forget you are far more likely to be raped, murdered, divorced, or killed by a drunk driver in the heart of the southern bible belt than you are in an area with low church attendance.

I don't know what this has to do with anything. Is this a straw man?
You said "six times as likely" and I was pointing out it meant "six times as likely as some imaginary number," and real life contradicts anything that would correspond to that number.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 15:35:09

Seems we still have a lot of confusion here. There are Right-Wing Libertarians (Ayn Rand) and Left-Wing Libertarians (Noam Chomsky). You can't just lump them all together.

Same with Authoritarians Left (Stalin) Right (George W Bush).

For instance I am anti-corporate (left libertarian) but not communist (left authoritarian). I support small business (less than 50 employees) and the elimination of government fees and licenses that restrict individuals from creating them. I would actually prefer to see individual labor contracts between each laborer and employer needing services, so that each employee is a contractor, self-employed.

I am anti-authoritarian but not anti-government. I see government's role as protecting the individual against authoritarian assaults on individual rights.

I have much in common with Ayn Rand, but nothing in common with George W Bush or Stalin.

The Tea Party is right-wing Authoritarian as they support all things corporate, and want to restrict individual liberties, (abortion, gay rights, placements of mosques, internet access, education, etc.)
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 15:53:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'Y')ou said "six times as likely" and I was pointing out it meant "six times as likely as some imaginary number," and real life contradicts anything that would correspond to that number.


Making sense as usual, I see. That is a study of real life, Preston. A study. Quantified behavior. Come on, respond with some Wizard of Oz BS tangent. You guys crack me up how you go round and round with these posts which I presume you think are logical and worth the bandwidth and your time.
All my posts should be rendered to shite as this place has been overrun with enviro-noobs and Gaia-philes who know nothing about how to build a widget and sell it it to people like you and me, even though they need x-amount of widgets to live.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 15:57:01

Cid, I actually agree with everything you wrote except the last paragraph. I fail to see how you can label people who literally called their congressmen and senators every single day screaming that the TARP bailout was lunacy as pro-corporate. Everyone who was original "tea party" before Bush left office thought all these failed corporations should be broken up, liquidated, and smaller solvent concerns should take their marketshare. How is this pro-corporate?

The basis of the tea party is anti-tax, anti-big government and anti-bailout. Anything else is either a fringe belief or a straw man.
All my posts should be rendered to shite as this place has been overrun with enviro-noobs and Gaia-philes who know nothing about how to build a widget and sell it it to people like you and me, even though they need x-amount of widgets to live.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 16:06:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'Y')ou said "six times as likely" and I was pointing out it meant "six times as likely as some imaginary number," and real life contradicts anything that would correspond to that number.


Making sense as usual, I see. That is a study of real life, Preston.
No a study of real life would involve something like looking at shop lifting arrests.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 16:08:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'P')rogressives/environmentalists are six times more likely to lie and steal in study of those who buy/don't buy green products.



Who paid for the study? Anyways, there is no such thing as a green product. Brazil nuts, may be, I cant think of anything else.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 16:10:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'S')eems we still have a lot of confusion here. There are Right-Wing Libertarians (Ayn Rand) and Left-Wing Libertarians (Noam Chomsky). You can't just lump them all together.....
I have much in common with Ayn Rand, but nothing in common with George W Bush or Stalin.
I heard someone at beckapalooza breathlessly talking about discovering Ayn Rand. It did not occur to me to ask how the whole militant atheism thing was working for them. I have little doubt Rand would have wanted to napalm that crowd.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 16:12:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'P')rogressives/environmentalists are six times more likely to lie and steal in study of those who buy/don't buy green products.



Who paid for the study? Anyways, there is no such thing as a green product. Brazil nuts, may be, I cant think of anything else.


The funny thing is, a bunch of environmentalist or "green" people did, LOL. They didn't get the results they expected. They thought that it would show those who bought green products were better people overall, etc. Turns out they have fewer inhibitions towards anti-social interpersonal behavior.
All my posts should be rendered to shite as this place has been overrun with enviro-noobs and Gaia-philes who know nothing about how to build a widget and sell it it to people like you and me, even though they need x-amount of widgets to live.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 16:14:04

The Tea Party was born defending the positions of the Health Care mega-corporations.

Subsequent positions by the Tea Party have all been in support of the prefered position of some large industry.

The Tea Party are puppets for corporate America.

The Tea party, as it exists today, did not exist when TARP was passed by the Bush Administration. It was co-opted in 2009.
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Thu 02 Sep 2010, 16:27:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 16:20:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', '
')
The Tea Party are puppets for corporate America.


You speak like Republicans or Democrats aren't puppets for corporate America.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 16:27:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', '
')
The Tea Party are puppets for corporate America.


You speak like Republicans or Democrats aren't puppets for corporate America.
Cthulu in 2012 - Why settle for the lesser of two evils?
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 16:33:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'T')he Tea Party was born defending the positions of the Health Care mega-corporations.


You are absolutely 100% wrong and have ZERO idea what you are talking about.

Not only are you spreading disinformation but possibly doing it knowingly, which is even more serious.

The people at Tickerforum became incensed at the TARP bailout. Stephanie Jasky, owner of the FedUpUSA.org website and member of TF, started the TF subforum "FedUp" to oppose bailouts and government over-reaching. Stephanie and others organized a campaign to call, email and fax congresspeople to oppose the TARP bailout on the FedUp subforum. A few months later on January 19th, the FedUp subforum first mentioned mailing a tea bag to congresspeople in order to protest higher taxes and bailouts. 11 days later, it was in the mainstream news. THAT is the provenance of the "tea party", as you call it.

Here is the original post, the very first mention of the original tea party and mailing a tea bag to congress.
http://tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?post=79282

That is a rather famous post, actually.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_protests
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ebruary 1, 2009 tea bag campaign

On January 19, 2009, Graham Makohoniuk, a part-time trader and a member of Ticker Forum, posted a casual invitation on the market-ticker.org forums to "Mail a tea bag to congress and to senate".[30] The idea quickly caught on with others on the forum, some of whom reported being attracted to the inexpensive, easy way to reach "everyone that voted for the bailout."[31]

Forum moderator, Stephanie Jasky helped organize the group and worked to "get it to go viral."[32] Jasky is also the founder and director of FedUpUSA - a fiscally conservative, non-partisan activist group whose members describe themselves as "a group of investors" who sprung out of the market-ticker.org forums.[33] The group had previously held DC protests in 2008.[34][35] On January 19, 2009, Jasky had posted a formal invitation "to a commemorative tea party."[36] She suggested they all send tea bags on the same day (February 1, 2009) in a coordinated effort.[32]

The founder of market-ticker.org, Karl Denninger (stock trader and former CEO),[37] published his own write-up on the proposed protest, titled "Tea Party February 1st?," which was posted in direct response to President Obama's inauguration occurring on the same day, and railed against the bailouts, the US national debt and "the fraud and abuse in our banking and financial system" which included the predatory lending practices currently at the center of the home mortgage foreclosure crisis.[38] Karl Denninger, who helped form FedUpUSA in the wake of the March 2008 Federal Reserve bail out of Bear Sterns, had been a guest on both Glenn Beck and CNBC Reports.[39][40] By February 1, the idea had spread among conservative and libertarian-oriented blogs, forums, websites and through a viral email campaign.[41]
All my posts should be rendered to shite as this place has been overrun with enviro-noobs and Gaia-philes who know nothing about how to build a widget and sell it it to people like you and me, even though they need x-amount of widgets to live.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 17:35:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '
')The basis of the tea party is anti-tax, anti-big government and anti-bailout. Anything else is either a fringe belief or a straw man.



So the Texas Tea Party is a fringe belief?
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 17:40:44

What about the Tea Party Patriots?

http://teapartypatriots.org/

Does Glenn Beck represent the Tea Party?
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 18:03:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hat about the Tea Party Patriots?

http://teapartypatriots.org/

Does Glenn Beck represent the Tea Party?


Your questions are slightly ridiculous because this is a completely decentralized movement and I don't know or care to know about those organizations. I described EXACTLY where and how it came about. I know that when I do meet other people who claim affinity with this movement, they share common concerns with me.

Beck is many things to many people. He is a propagandist and corporate mouthpiece to me.

Overall, those who aren't brainwashed by Fox news and shared proto-tea party sentiments, were protesting the policies of Bush and Hank Paulson bank bailouts in 2008 and think that he's more or less a poseur.

If you only get your news from Fox, then I can see why they would think Glenn Beck has something to do with it. Beck is a textbook case of corporate interests trying to co-opt a movement that is outside their sphere of control. They are desperately trying to absorb and control the people who have an affinity with the tea party.
All my posts should be rendered to shite as this place has been overrun with enviro-noobs and Gaia-philes who know nothing about how to build a widget and sell it it to people like you and me, even though they need x-amount of widgets to live.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 18:14:59

Look at the right-wing authoritarians try to tell us they aren't right-wing authoritarians. :lol:
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 18:22:24

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/35785.html

The Tea Party movement has good folks and energy and may emerge as a viable party from the host of groups that loosely form what people like to think of as one entity when it is not.

I hope they are successful in establishing their own new party and do not get used as a GOP puppet
and then thrown away when they get used up as a cover story for the same old stuff. Palin wants to run the GOP and the Tea Party is a vehicle instead of a destination IMHO, for her the Tea Party is a purge movement inside her party of choice.

The Progressives on the Left side need a similar place to express themselves away from the old rot of the Democratic Party.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 18:24:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '
')
Your questions are slightly ridiculous because this is a completely decentralized movement and I don't know or care to know about those organizations.



Ok, but they seem to be claiming to be the Tea Party. Maybe the Tea Party is something different from what you think it is? Or has become something different from what it started out as?

The Beck rally seems to be represented as a Tea Party rally.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-2 ... ngton.html
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