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History of American Progressivism through Literature

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 01 Sep 2010, 14:42:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')I certainly hope people are expressing their concerns freely and in detail.

Personally I am happy to see plenty of Tea Party type rallies, especially those with signs and slogans. I wish there had been personal signs allowed at the Beck rally.


Your hopes are fulfilled ! There are thousands of permits issued yearly just for the National Mall area alone and constant rallies, protests, gatherings, speeches, concerts etc going on with people expressing their views or trying to influence citizens and policy makers on every topic you can imagine. Of course, everyone who does it wants publicity, but national news only just covers the ones they think might get them ratings. Even the big rallys like the "Sea of Pink Rally" for breast cancer this year don't get that widespread coverage. But, since I live here, I notice 100,000 women milling around in pink T-Shirts !
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 01 Sep 2010, 16:40:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '
')No, Nazism is a form of fascism, like rain is a form of water.



If Germany implemented fascism in 1930s that does not mean a country cannot be nationally socialized without it. Fascism is nothing but an intent to rule efficiently, reduce waste, reduce costs , ets. It got nothing to do with a nationality or a race whatsoever. Mussolini had quite a few of Jews around him, didnt he? One was even a minister of something. He got offed later on though, but for a good reason.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 01 Sep 2010, 17:13:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '[')img]http://static.lulu.com/product/paperback/liberal-fascism/2286650/thumbnail/320[/img]

Jonah is a Nazi apologist. He's so tied in knots that he says that American skinheads and the KKK are liberals. I'd love to see him try to explain that to some skinheads and curbed. Jonah has jumped the shark tank many a time, but he folded the Liberal Fascism blog shortly after he tried to argue that the white supremacist who shot the black guard at the Holocaust memorial was really a liberal by definition. He also said that Hitler was an antisemite, but that did not necessarily make Hitler a racist. Apparently jonah missed all the stuff about "race" that Hitler wrote.

Jonah's writing is part of a genre of Nazi apologist/Hitler apologist. This was all set up to be a campaign theme for the GOPer trailer trash when it was assumed Hillary would be the nominee. But then Obama got elected, which put them in the position of arguing that black people are closet fascists, and presumably holding to fascist themes of racial purity, nostalgia for the past, and paranoia about minorities.

"Liberal Fascism" is why the word "retard" needs to stay our slang vocabulary, for people who have actually read it. Most people that cite "Liberal Fascism" have never actually read any of it, and are in a sub-sub-retard category.


I do agree with this rant, however why liberals pretend to be a part of this " progressivism" weirds me out. What kind of a progress is Liberalism? You have two people, one is getting out of here through dialysis, another is a healthy guy with 2 healthy kidneys. A healthy guy is forced ( coerced, convinced, bribed, whatever) to give away one of his kidneys. As a result, we have 2 sick individuals. What kind of a progress is this?
People are not equal with other people to begin with. They never were, they never will be.
Some are stronger, some are smarter, some are insane, some look nicer and so on and so forth.
If people were equal, you would mention my name in your will if i would wish it to be there. If people were equal, you would take in a homeless guy to live with you. And so on and so forth.

Furthermore, I have never seen a liberal able to explain why exactly this " equality" border sits so firmly on a specie borderline and not a step back to the subspecies ( races) and not a step forth to the genus. Why not extend this " equality" and "rights" to chimps that are 99% identical to humans? What about gorillas, with their 96-97% proximity? Or may be we could extend this to all apes, and then to all primates, and then to all mammals, to all vertebrae? How about that slimy growth under your deck that has 50% of your DNA? No? It got no face? It got no mother? It is... it? Not him, not her, or both? Its the language thing, right?
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 01 Sep 2010, 20:25:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '
')No, Nazism is a form of fascism, like rain is a form of water.

If Germany implemented fascism in 1930s that does not mean a country cannot be nationally socialized without it. Fascism is nothing but an intent to rule efficiently, reduce waste, reduce costs , ets.
What inspired America to its greatest levels of productivity and inventiveness was its fight against Fascism. But I guess it shows the Axis did force us to step up our game.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 01 Sep 2010, 22:31:28

Fascism is extreme authoritarian rule. As in, the state vs the individual or ruling class vs the majority.

Individual freedoms are under extreme threat under Fascist (authoritarian) rule.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')oun 1. fascism - a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)


Where do you fall on the Political Compass?
Political Compass

Cid_Yama Political Compass

I am to the left economically because corporations are immortal and amoral entities that require strong regulation.

I am libertarian, as authoritarianism is just depriving individuals of their personal freedoms in order to regiment the masses to make them easier to control (oppress).

Click printable version to get a link to your own political compass.

Tanada, you really need to take this test, so you know where you really stand.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 07:14:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'F')ascism is extreme authoritarian rule. As in, the state vs the individual or ruling class vs the majority.

Individual freedoms are under extreme threat under Fascist (authoritarian) rule.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')oun 1. fascism - a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)


Where do you fall on the Political Compass?
Political Compass

Cid_Yama Political Compass

I am to the left economically because corporations are immortal and amoral entities that require strong regulation.

I am libertarian, as authoritarianism is just depriving individuals of their personal freedoms in order to regiment the masses to make them easier to control (oppress).

Click printable version to get a link to your own political compass.

Tanada, you really need to take this test, so you know where you really stand.


I have taken that test, or variations of it many times over the last 25 years and I always end up in the same general region, middle of the road extreme Libertarian. I want people to have the most freedom they can possibly have and be responsible for their own actions. The Nanny State is anathema too me and I don't care if they call themselves Republicans, Democrats, Conservatives, Liberals, Socialists or Communists, they all add up as bad in my book because of how they ACT not what they SAY.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 08:33:29

I have always been extreme libertarian, but have progressively moved left economically over the years as I've watched corporation grow and run amok like giant robots without a care for what destruction they wrought.

Perhaps limitations on size and scope would be a better route. As in prohibition of multinationals opperating within our borders and strong use of anti-trust.

Corporations are, by their nature, hierarchical and authoritarian, and threaten the rights of the individual and our ability to govern ourselves as guaranteed by the Constitution.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 09:43:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', '
')I am to the left economically because corporations are immortal and amoral entities that require strong regulation.



i happen to agree with this. So I am a lefty too?
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 12:01:56

How many "libertarians" would there be without corporations and billionaires and their money telling us that if we deregulate enough we'll all fly away to Rock Candy Mountain and live with Jesus forever?
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 12:05:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'H')ow many "libertarians" would there be without corporations and billionaires and their money telling us that if we deregulate enough we'll all fly away to Rock Candy Mountain and live with Jesus forever?



How many libertarians are poor, disabled, female, or other minority? Or do they tend to be upper middle-class, healthy, white males?
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 12:16:54

Corporations are immortal, but not immoral IMHO, they are just eating machines, and if a nation does not restrict their realm of operations in it's own self interest, they will eat things that are dear to a nation but tasty to themselves.

They are sort of like sharks and I think America became convinced they were OUR sharks instead of just sharks, but the moral and immoral part of it is because they bit us and we thought we were friends. It is our own illusion. Hope we tasted good.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 12:29:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'H')ow many "libertarians" would there be without corporations and billionaires and their money telling us that if we deregulate enough we'll all fly away to Rock Candy Mountain and live with Jesus forever?

How many libertarians are poor, disabled, female, or other minority? Or do they tend to be upper middle-class, healthy, white males?
As the saying goes, rich people are eccentric, poor people are crazy.

Did Glenn beck formally throw the Libertarians out of Tea party when he condemned "liberation theology?" Libertarians might deny a religious bent, but the Beck religious base says everything (evolution, federalism, secular humanism, the designated hitter rule) are all forms of religion. And Rand Paul sure mixes it with a huge heap of Christian Dominionism.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 12:50:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'H')ow many "libertarians" would there be without corporations and billionaires and their money telling us that if we deregulate enough we'll all fly away to Rock Candy Mountain and live with Jesus forever?



How many libertarians are poor, disabled, female, or other minority? Or do they tend to be upper middle-class, healthy, white males?


I can't speak for everyone of course, but the predominant socio-economic group represented in Libertarian rallies around here are working class families.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 13:00:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'H')ow many "libertarians" would there be without corporations and billionaires and their money telling us that if we deregulate enough we'll all fly away to Rock Candy Mountain and live with Jesus forever?



How many libertarians are poor, disabled, female, or other minority? Or do they tend to be upper middle-class, healthy, white males?


My wife is a libertarian and a female. But I get your point, there arent many libertarians among those who leech off someone else's pocket.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 13:07:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')I can't speak for everyone of course, but the predominant socio-economic group represented in Libertarian rallies around here are working class families.



By "Libertarian rallies" do you mean Tea Party rallies?
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 13:45:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'H')ow many "libertarians" would there be without corporations and billionaires and their money telling us that if we deregulate enough we'll all fly away to Rock Candy Mountain and live with Jesus forever?
How many libertarians are poor, disabled, female, or other minority? Or do they tend to be upper middle-class, healthy, white males?
My wife is a libertarian and a female. But I get your point, there arent many libertarians among those who leech off someone else's pocket.
The miracle now is that libertarianism is being mass marketed to people that are chronically sick, elderly, dependent, and not very bright, as if they are going to hitch up a team of oxen to drag their Medicare financed Hoverrounds over the Donner Pass and into the land of milk and honey.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 13:59:48

Progressives/environmentalists are six times more likely to lie and steal in study of those who buy/don't buy green products.

Yes, progressive indeed. What role models. Maybe some honest self-examination might expose some of that hypocrisy.

http://www.slate.com/id/2237674/pagenum/all/#p2
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 14:28:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'e')nvironmentalists



Do you consider yourself an "anti-environment" person? And does being anti-environment make you a good person?

By the way you still owe me $1000. :)
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 14:42:49

I think there's easily some confusion between the Libertarian Party and the Constitution Party or Tea Party. Here in Texas at least, the Constitution/Tea Party has a platform very different from the Libertarian Party platform.

Libertarian platform: http://www.lp.org/platform

Constitution Party/Tea Party (Texas): http://texasteaparty.org/whythecp.html

The Libertarian Party is quiet on issues of religion, whereas the Constitution/Tea Party is not: http://texasteaparty.org/christianheritage.html

They differ strongly on the issue of abortion.

They do share a number of positions, of course.
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Re: History of American Progressivism through Literature

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 02 Sep 2010, 14:47:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'P')rogressives/environmentalists are six times more likely to lie and steal in study of those who buy/don't buy green products.

Yes, progressive indeed. What role models. Maybe some honest self-examination might expose some of that hypocrisy.

http://www.slate.com/id/2237674/pagenum/all/#p2
The best place to have your life savings stolen is by investing in something you heard about through church. Don't forget you are far more likely to be raped, murdered, divorced, or killed by a drunk driver in the heart of the southern bible belt than you are in an area with low church attendance.

You need to go back and reread that commandment about "bearing false witness." The study was simulated situation in an unpublished paper. The effect they are studying ("moral licensing") is very likely to also apply to regular churchgoers who feel like God will wink at their sins. Or as they say IOKIYAAR (It's OK If You Are A Republican). So if somebody says "six times as likely as a conservative," well that's just making stuff up.

And that goes back to the idea of "Babbitry" (the stereotype of the smug amoral church going hypocrite) we were talking about at the top of this thread.

Why didn't they study religious conservatives at U of T? Probably because they don't have that kind of religious culture in downtown Toronto, where your most frequent churchgoers are immigrants.
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