[Xenophobe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')So you're just shootin' the shit. Posting more meaningless drivel masquerading as "depth."

[diemos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 'I') made a pretty declarative statement. It related to amounts of energy available to humans.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diemos', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 'I') made a pretty declarative statement. It related to amounts of energy available to humans.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'S')o, it may be wise to prepare for a not-best scenario.

[Mesuge]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ')I understand the difficult of wresting control from BAU/TPTB, however, if our attitudes have indeed changed, we would be in the process of obtaining that control (which we might indeed be as Xenophobe points out with Transition Towns, etc).

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '{')edited a completely unnacceptable rant-MD} Can I help you leave per chance?

[Newfie]

In my mind the current discussion over the amount and usability of free energy is one of the main reasons the cornucopians don't "get it." I have had this argument over and over with folks and I can never make my case, they seem convinced that technology will find a way, or that we are being lied to about a 300MPG carburetor.

There are various forms of energy, fossil fuels happen to represent a very cheap and highly concentrated form of energy. All other types of available energy require some significant form of infrastructure in order to extract them in a meaningful amount. James Lovelock has commented on this explaining that we should husband all available fossil resources to build nuclear plants so that we can make the transition.

In a way I think the "technology will fix it" approach is akin to saying the silent hand of capitalism will fix it. If the demand becomes sufficiently high then technological resources will be committed to finding ways to extract the energy.

But that is a false argument:

In the first place is seriously disrupts the EROEI balance. So that, even if we were able to get the new energy, it would require much more human input. It is sort of like saying that we can still grow wheat without tractors. Yes that is true, but you need a new motive force that is not as efficient. So even if you are right on this point it will still drastically change the way we live.

Secondly fossil fuels provide us much more than simple bare calories as we use them to create fertilizers and plastics and medicines etc. It is true that we could reproduce most of this with some form of renewable power, but again far, far less efficiently. That drives our EROEI balance down even further and yet further modifies our current life style.

This is all occurring at a time when Earth is being asked to support an ever growing human population. That population lives in relative poverty but has been conditioned to expect an energy intensive Western lifestyle. So the energy demands will grow even in the face of a stabilizing population on top of huge losses in efficiency.

And finally Earth is also being asked to absorb huge amounts of toxins that we create. We have depleted our soils, fouled our water, and dirtied our air. These resources, Soil, Water, & Air, can be viewed as fossil energy resources as they were accumulated and stored by Earth. We are now depleting them at far, far, far above sustainable rates. So your "free energy," which comes at high investment cost and low relative efficiency, must now also be produced in sufficient quantity to distill our water, purify our air, and restore our soil.

----------------------------Fat chance-----------------------------------

Had humans the ability to look forward and do planning to avert such a conclusion we would have already seen significant work being accomplished. But the evidence is to the contrary. France was vilified by most of the West for turning to nuclear power. China was vilified for enforcing the one-child policy. The US cut foreign aid for family planning. What the US has invested in, since Jimmy Carter, is the idea that we need to protect the mid-East oil fields so that they remain available for our use.

There is only one possible answer for humanity which is to sufficiently reduce our numbers to sustainable levels before we do such egregious harm to the environment that we cause our own extinction.

Cheers

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diemos', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 'I') made a pretty declarative statement. It related to amounts of energy available to humans.

[diemos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diemos', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 'I') made a pretty declarative statement. It related to amounts of energy available to humans.

[diemos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')f there is no infrastructure, then the energy is not available tomorrow, which was the claim. Which sources of energy are available tomorrow, that we can plug in to replace oil if it were to hypothetically disappear?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diemos', '
')Every solution we have requires either:
1. Someone to give up current consumption to fund investment in new infrastructure.
2. Someone to give up their current gravy train under BAU.
3. Accepting lifestyle changes that strike at our status symbols and identity (i.e. big cars and big houses).
4. Accepting changes that strike at our fundamental sense human freedom and dignity (i.e. forced birth control).

I don't expect that human beings will ever do this so I'm a doomer.

[diemos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t seem doing nothing is the "easiest" choice

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diemos', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t seem doing nothing is the "easiest" choice

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')It will take the full force of national, regional, and local governments to break down and rebuild our living and working habitats to account for forever declining transport and manufacturing energy.

[frood]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diemos', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t seem doing nothing is the "easiest" choice

[Ludi]

I stand corrected!

[Carlhole]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')n my mind the current discussion over the amount and usability of free energy is one of the main reasons the cornucopians don't "get it."