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Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:20:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', ' ')You start a business, you 'live' your business. You never take a vacation, you never take a sick day, you never enjoy a week-end.



I like to hope other self-employed folks manage their businesses well enough to be able to take some time "off." But maybe there is some kind of benefit to be able to talk about working so hard. I've not personally found it necessary to work so hard


So you think that not taking time off is a failure on my part to "manage my business."

Like I said Ludi, I have no negative thoughts for people like you who don't work hard - it's a choice you make and I respect that.

The issue I have is when you suggest that the tax system in the U.S. is screwing everybody but the rich.

You still haven't responded, on point to this - - - >
When I made 12k a year, I paid zero federal taxes.
When I made 20k a year, I paid about 1k.
When I made 80k, I paid about 8k.
When I made 1/2 a mill, I paid about 170k.

"Rich" people, as you define them, pay much more than their "share" of taxes in the U.S.. "Poor" people pay hardly anything. "Middle class" pay a small amount.

Here's what you, Ludi, want to happen - you want to redistribute wealth by taxing the rich more.
NOT because the middle class is taxed too heavily,
NOT because the poor are taxed too heavily,
NOT because the rich aren't paying a huge portion of taxes,

BUT
ONLY because they have more.

That's it.

The point of this whole thread, for me, has been to demonstrate that Ludi's philosophy is Marxist, and while she attempts to demonstrate that the rich are really getting over on everybody tax-wise and the only fair thing to do would be to have them pay more, that's all a naked pretense to cover the obvious truth . . .

. . . which is that Ludi believes that money should be taken from the "rich" and redistributed, with no further description required.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby dsula » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:23:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '[')Then why don't you do work which you can keep?

That's a good point and I try to do that as much as possible.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:24:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ')It seems to me you want to be part of the money economy and society, but you don't want to have to pay for your share of it

Classic Marxism!
I have paid more taxes in a single year than Ludi will pay over her entire life, and her thought is that I am objecting to "paying my share."
Why not say "fair share" to really sink home the point.
:lol:
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:27:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '[')Then why don't you do work which you can keep?

That's a good point and I try to do that as much as possible.



Good for you! It seems to me the complaints one often hears from the wealthy about paying too much in income taxes are a bit odd in some ways, because there are so many ways to reduce taxes and benefit society more directly, such as charitable endeavors, rolling the profits back in to the business, etc. I don't know why people who are worried about the proposed slight increase in income taxes (some 3% I believe), don't understand they can easily avoid paying the increase. I guess like the hard workers they are, they want lower taxes without having to do anything for them (except complain).
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:28:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ')I don't have kids but I do pay for the schooling of others' children.

For the record, I think it's immoral that you're forced to fund the idiot factories.
Property tax is immoral.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby dsula » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:29:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Not sure where you get the idea I don't pay much in property taxes. :?: I don't have kids but I do pay for the schooling of others' children.

Where I live the state 'helps' paying your property tax if you're low income. And paying for other kid's education. Hey, those kids will pay your medical bills soon enough.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:32:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '
')Where I live the state 'helps' paying your property tax if you're low income. And paying for other kid's education. Hey, those kids will pay your medical bills soon enough.


I don't receive any state help in paying my property taxes. Or my medical bills. 8O
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby dsula » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:36:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '[')Then why don't you do work which you can keep?

That's a good point and I try to do that as much as possible.


Good for you! It seems to me the complaints one often hears from the wealthy about paying too much in income taxes are a bit odd in some ways, because there are so many ways to reduce taxes and benefit society more directly, such as charitable endeavors, rolling the profits back in to the business, etc. I don't know why people who are worried about the proposed slight increase in income taxes (some 3% I believe), don't understand they can easily avoid paying the increase. I guess like the hard workers they are, they want lower taxes without having to do anything for them (except complain).

I'm not wealthy and I'm not rich. But I believe in fairness. And it's not fair right now. It's unfair for people who choose to work. And the harder you choose to work the more you get screwed. And that pisses me off. And it pisses me off that you have to use 'loopholes' and tricks to avoid unfair taxation. Which makes it even more unfair for the ones that don't have the capabilites to use those 'tricks'.
If you make $400k/yr with your own business you should not have to pay more taxes than teh guy that makes $50k/year.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:39:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'G')ood for you! It seems to me the complaints one often hears from the wealthy about paying too much in income taxes are a bit odd in some ways, because there are so many ways to reduce taxes and benefit society more directly, such as charitable endeavors, rolling the profits back in to the business, etc. I don't know why people who are worried about the proposed slight increase in income taxes (some 3% I believe), don't understand they can easily avoid paying the increase. I guess like the hard workers they are, they want lower taxes without having to do anything for them (except complain).


Oh My Gooood! I adore the Internet. I really do. It's posts like these that keep me coming back. The person who is a self-proclaimed non-hard worker, who doesn't have much income, who notes that folks who own their own businesses should "manage better" so they can take time off, is giving free corporate tax advice!!

AAhaaahaahaahahaaa ahahaha aha ha haa. OMG. Seriously, you just made my day. I've got a huge amount to get done today (building a barn), so I can't post anymore, but thanks for this.

OK, so really quick - I can "reduce taxes" and "help society" by giving money to charity. So I give charity X dollars and I reduce my taxes by 1/3 X dollars.
Further, I shouldn't worry about the "tiny" 3% increase, which, back when I worked, would have been about 12 grand - naaaah. Why worry about that? That's just a nice new care every year for the rest of my working life. Silly me to be so concerned with that money. And better yet, Ludi tells me I can "easily" avoid paying it . . . .
WHOOOOOOOP atahoathehahahahahahahahahahaha! Really, I don't LOL much, but this is just precious. The non-hardworking homesteader who doesn't have much income and has never run a business is giving me tax advice. And me, intimately familiar with the IRC@!@@!! :lol:

And it gets better! I can avoid taxes by "rolling the profits back into the business."

AHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh my God, have I been missing out all these years? I guess I should fire my accountant. All I needed to do was roll my income back into the business and I wouldn't have had to pay all those taxes.

[wiping up tears]
God I love the Internets. I'm going to be really sad when Bush the 3rd (or 4th) takes it down.

And we wrap it up with this gem . . .
"I guess like the hard workers they are, they want lower taxes without having to do anything for them (except complain)."

I don't want to have to "do anything" for lower taxes?

Oh please please, don't stop! Don't ever stop!

Please detail, if possible, exactly what I should "do" for lower taxes? Really. I need to know. I mean, I got the give-money-away one, and I got the roll-back-in one, but there has to be more.

Ohh lord. Man, I owe you Ludi. Seriously, you just made my day. :)

To the barn!
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 10:08:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')I prefer the Asian system, where the state does nothing for the poor, but it lets them build slums and raise their children in them. Personal choice and personal responsibility.



Personally I think there are better systems than either the welfare state or the Asian system of slums. But such would probably require an upheaval of our current culture, and is unlikely. Pstarr has posted a lot about this.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 10:11:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'A')nd the harder you choose to work the more you get screwed. And that pisses me off.



So why work so hard only to get pissed off? I've never had trouble paying my taxes even when I made a lot of money (a lot for me, not a lot for you, probably).

The idea that a guy who makes 10x the money as some other guy should pay the same amount in taxes seems odd. Because it is unlikely he works 10x harder than the guy who makes 10x less.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 10:16:10

BTW, dsula, thank you for having a civil discussion of these touchy subjects. :)
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Pretorian » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 15:09:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '
')If you make $400k/yr with your own business you should not have to pay more taxes than teh guy that makes $50k/year.



there are countless businesses where the taxes get even better than that. If yours isnt one of them that probably because its iinvolved in some useless luxury production or services The society can do without.

Once again , I do not see anybody speculating about bets on people's lives once there are no funds for society to function in orderly manner. If that will be the case I suggest a homeless guy will have a far better chance to make it to another day than Expatriot and the like. Or a much better chance NOT to find a properly functioning soldering-iron up his ass.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 15:48:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 't')here are countless businesses where the taxes get even better than that. If yours isnt one of them that probably because its iinvolved in some useless luxury production or services The society can do without. Once again , I do not see anybody speculating about bets on people's lives once there are no funds for society to function in orderly manner. If that will be the case I suggest a homeless guy will have a far better chance to make it to another day than Expatriot and the like. Or a much better chance NOT to find a properly functioning soldering-iron up his ass.


Huh? Can you restate the point?
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 16:02:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')he idea that a guy who makes 10x the money as some other guy should pay the same amount in taxes seems odd. Because it is unlikely he works 10x harder than the guy who makes 10x less.


So Ludi - serious question here.
On the Pure Marxist to Pure Capitalist scale, with Marx being a 1 and Rockerfeller being a 100, where do you place yourself? (I'd put myself at about 90 - some strict govt. controls required on banks and corporations, little restraint elsewhere).

Your quote is awesome.
The quote is – “The idea that a guy who makes 10x the money as some other guy should pay the same amount in taxes seems odd. Because it is unlikely he works 10x harder than the guy who makes 10x less.”

The clear implication in this statement is classic Marxism.
What’s being said is “If guy B works 4 times harder than guy A, any money he makes greater than 4x the money guy A gets should be, in whole or in part, confiscated by the state for use by others.”
The belief underpinning the statement is that “hardness” of work is the only litmus for determining what you get to keep.
That is . . .
. . . if digging a ditch is as ‘hard’ as surgery, then a surgeon shouldn’t make more than a ditch digger, other than, we presume, some reimbursement for schooling, but, extended, that would be provided by the state anyway, so no go!
Certainly nobody should be compensated for being “better” at what they do than the next person. There’s no room for rewarding individual talent.

If I'm working hard at making wooden structures and Joe is working equally hard at making hamburgers in the automated McD's machine, we should be compensated equivalently.

Is there anything more fundamentally Marxist than believing that income in excess of what your neighbor can earn for the same amount of work should be confiscated by the government, in whole or in part?
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 18:11:04

The difficulty of a job does not determine its dollar value.

The relative scarcity of those willing perform the work and the relative demand of those willing pay to have the work done determines the price.

Economists figured this out in the early 1800s (if not before that).

Every surgeon can probably figure out how to sell cars. But not every car salesman knows how to perform surgery. In order to become a car salesman, you need a high school diploma (and maybe an associates degree) and an outgoing personality. In order to become a surgeon you need a decade of higher education and years of practice.

Thus, the supply of potential surgeons is much smaller than the supply of potential car salesman.

In the real world, we might actually have more surgeons than car salesmen. But the surgeon will still be paid more because if the salaries of car salesmen rise substantially, thousands of people will try to enter the market, driving down wages. The same is not true for surgeons. Higher incomes for surgeons do not easily translate into more people entering the job market. (The elasticity of supply for surgeons is fairly low.) Especially considering we haven't increased the number of medical school graduates in 30 years.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Pretorian » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 18:41:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 't')here are countless businesses where the taxes get even better than that. If yours isnt one of them that probably because its iinvolved in some useless luxury production or services The society can do without. Once again , I do not see anybody speculating about bets on people's lives once there are no funds for society to function in orderly manner. If that will be the case I suggest a homeless guy will have a far better chance to make it to another day than Expatriot and the like. Or a much better chance NOT to find a properly functioning soldering-iron up his ass.


Huh? Can you restate the point?


well I guess I can try once more. Do you know what a soldering iron is ? here is an old but very good one:

Image

So, once people get hungry, they get angry for some reason. A part of human nature I guess. Once prison guards, police, feds, ets stop being funded, they will go elsewhere minding their business. Once there are no prisons or enforced laws, and hunger and general poverty, some lucky guy(s) will fish you out of your mansion really, really quick. Or perhaps he/they will pay a visit.
After that its a very simple technique really:
1) you lay down on your belly on the floor (or a leather couch, if that is your preference);
2) the head of the above mentioned soldering iron is shoved inside of your heinee;
3) it gets plugged in;
4) once it gets hot, you develop a serious case of auchie-boo-boos ;
5) now nothing is left but sit and wait until u decide that being rich is overrated.
Please remember that they wont be accepting checks, money orders, credit card prints, so make sure you have enough to pay them for their hard work.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 19:09:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '.') . . being rich is overrated.
Please remember that they wont be accepting checks, money orders, credit card prints, so make sure you have enough to pay them for their hard work.


Well, I live in a simple house, as I said, I dress quite plainly, and we all shoot well and are willing to gun down anybody who needs gunning down, no questions asked. The only way I'm ever going to end up on the floor is if I'm blacked out drunk when they arrive. And I don't get blacked out drunk.

So no worries.

Oh, and for the record - being "rich" is wonderful. The main reason? My time is my own, and I have no worries about bills or money. It's not the stuff you can buy with the money. That has little value to me. It's the not having to spend my day pushing papers or some other drivel.

It's beautiful. In a way, I imagine it to be much like it would have been pre-civilization. I spend my day raising (hunting) animals and growing (gathering) food. Really. It's beautiful. More than I expected when I exited the rat race.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby deMolay » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 20:00:09

If history is any example Pretorian, and I posture it is our only real reference. The hated, in your case rich quickly flee the coop with their wealth before things get really violent. The ones that will get the soldering iron up the ass, will be such as yourself. That think because you are not rolling in money that they will be immune to the violence. You know, hi I'm one of the bro's, a part of the mob. But mob's have a funny way of quickly rationalizing down to the lowest common denominator. The beans or rusty can of sardines that you are found clutching by your mob. Will quickly be removed from your starving hands and inspite of your pleas for mercy for you and your family. You will find yourself face down with a hot poker up your arse as they demand more of your beans and sardines etc. It is all relative.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Pretorian » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 20:04:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')
Oh, and for the record - being "rich" is wonderful.


it is, until above mentioned tool is used in the most efficient (money-wise) method. Oh and well-being of the epithelium cells in your rectum is the least of my concerns, so no worries here, don't worry .
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