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Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Fri 13 Aug 2010, 07:59:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'E')xpatriot,

Considering that interest payments alone are around 7% of federal spending, a 95% reduction in federal government spending means debt default and anarchy. Lovely.

As for replacing taxes with import tariffs, we only import $2.2 trillion worth of stuff a year. You would need an 80% tariff just to replace current revenue, to say nothing of the impact on trade that kind of tariff would bring.


Well, I was being a bit fatuous, of course, but I essentially meant what I wrote.

Here's what I'd do, in this order . . .
Cut the govt. by 95%. Get rid of 95% of the military - get rid of the FBI and CIA, get rid of the IRS. Dept of Education, and so on.
Print as much money as is required to redeem all debt and then redeem all debt.
Implement a system of currency that has a fixed amount of cash in the system.

Something like that.

Pain me now, or pain me worse later.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Fri 13 Aug 2010, 08:00:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')
How can those numbers be viewed as anything other than the "rich" carrying the lion's share while the "middle class" and "poor" skate with extremely low taxes?


Expatriot, the rich had always paid "the lion share" of any tax base simply because they benefit from the state more than anybody else.


I don't agree.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 13 Aug 2010, 15:37:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')
How can those numbers be viewed as anything other than the "rich" carrying the lion's share while the "middle class" and "poor" skate with extremely low taxes?


Expatriot, the rich had always paid "the lion share" of any tax base simply because they benefit from the state more than anybody else.


I don't agree.



Well, do you agree that you wouldn't be able to be rich without a society around you? Do you agree that no one would bet a rusty, holed penny on your life if your potential killer(s) would not have to face a chance to spent the rest of their lives in prison?
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Fri 13 Aug 2010, 16:30:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '
')Well, do you agree that you wouldn't be able to be rich without a society around you?

Disregarding the potential breadth of the word "society," no, I don't agree.
The less outside structure there is to contain the soiled masses, the more internal structure would exist.
A thousand years ago it was Lords and such. Peasants were peasants. You f--- with a Lord, he cuts your head off, and nobody thinks twice about it.
Before that, it was barbarian chieftans.

In any event, your argument is a tautology - the rich pay the taxes to create the society. The poor don't. If the poor were the support mechanism, then we'd be back to Lords and peasants.

Ergo, the "society" to which you refer is created by the "rich," and therefore nothing is owed by the rich to anyone for the society.

There will always be rich and poor.

Because, regardless of any social change, there will always be the lazy, and they will always allow things to fall back to the Lord/Peasant arrangement.

All revolutions lead back to the beginning. Look at the Russians. Look at us. We went from being taxed explicitly without representation to pay for the Lord's stuff to being taxed de facto without representation to pay for TPTB stuff.

So what? You want another revolution? OK. The fat, lazy idiots that pollute the gene pool will re-enslave themselves within 20 years.

Oh well.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 13 Aug 2010, 17:18:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '
')Well, do you agree that you wouldn't be able to be rich without a society around you?

Disregarding the potential breadth of the word "society," no, I don't agree.


well whatever dude, if you think you could amass dollar bills without anyone making them and appreciating them, we have very little to discuss.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', 'A') thousand years ago it was Lords and such. Peasants were peasants. You f--- with a Lord, he cuts your head off, and nobody thinks twice about it.


sure, nobody, except for the Lord. Cut one head too many , and oh oops there goes your own.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', 'I')n any event, your argument is a tautology - the rich pay the taxes to create the society. The poor don't. If the poor were the support mechanism, then we'd be back to Lords and peasants.

Ergo, the "society" to which you refer is created by the "rich," and therefore nothing is owed by the rich to anyone for the society.


I ahvent said anything like that. The rich do not create the society. The rich are the ex-poor who stole, defrauded, robbed, embezzled, or simply peddled something to the whole society, to the ex-rich, or to the poor. End of story. The rich are interested in being rich, and part of being rich means to be alive. So you pay, and in exchange the society does not kill you. That was the case in Ancient Rome, that was the case in any ancient city, that is the case now. You pay, you let somebody else pay by giving up your riches, or you die. End of story.


PS Very little annoys me more than whining of the self-entitled "poor" that live in the world's richest countries. Whining of the myopic "rich" makes it close though.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Fri 13 Aug 2010, 18:53:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '
')Well, do you agree that you wouldn't be able to be rich without a society around you?

Disregarding the potential breadth of the word "society," no, I don't agree.


well whatever dude, if you think you could amass dollar bills without anyone making them and appreciating them

No idea what you mean here. There was wealth before dollars. There will be wealth after dollars. There was wealth before society. There will be wealth after society.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', 'A') thousand years ago it was Lords and such. Peasants were peasants. You f--- with a Lord, he cuts your head off, and nobody thinks twice about it.


sure, nobody, except for the Lord. Cut one head too many , and oh oops there goes your own.
This has always been the case and always will be the case. The downtrodden will rise up if too many heads are cut. The way to work it is to make sure you don't cut too many.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pre', 'T')he rich do not create the society. The rich are the ex-poor who stole, defrauded, robbed, embezzled, or simply peddled something to the whole society, to the ex-rich, or to the poor. End of story. The rich are interested in being rich, and part of being rich means to be alive. So you pay, and in exchange the society does not kill you.
You sound like somebody who has never had much money.
Nobody got rich by working hard? By being innovative? By giving people what they want?
Use of the word "peddle" suggests that the buyer is not smart enough to know what he wants. Is that what you mean?
You seem to be suggesting that most rich folks got that way by being immoral. Is that what you mean?
And you have it backwards - the rich allow the peasants to live, not the other way around. That's the way it is, and that's the way it's always going to be.
Problem with the peasants is that they're too simple to ever take the long view. They can be bought very easily. They're useful to have around - after all, the Lord needs his boots licked nice and shiny.
All of history supports this thesis. With the exception of a few years immediately after revolutions, the peasants only subsist because they're given grace by the folks holding the power.
Ask the millions of Irish peasants who starved to death why they simply didn't rise up and kill their Lords in England.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pre', 'Y')ou pay, you let somebody else pay by giving up your riches, or you die. End of story.
This is just silly. All of history has been about the peasants having the clothes on their backs and their ability to do donkey work for 12 hours a day. No lords ever gave riches to peasants to keep power - cf the Prince. Go to Russia right now and ask the millions of peasants why they don't just go get some of the riches. Nice story, but it's not real.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pre', 'P')S Very little annoys me more than whining of the self-entitled "poor" that live in the world's richest countries. Whining of the myopic "rich" makes it close though.
Well, in the interests of keeping your list properly pruned for posterity as time goes by, make sure to save all of your posts and reread them in 10 or 20 years. I know I find the Expatriot of 20 years ago simply intolerable. :WINK:
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 13 Aug 2010, 19:18:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pre', 'Y')ou pay, you let somebody else pay by giving up your riches, or you die. End of story.

This is just silly.


Eh, but you do pay don't you? End of story.

Anyways, I had hopes to find a decent opponent in you , it was a mistake obviously. You are not a smart man Expatriot. I'm sorry.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Fri 13 Aug 2010, 20:50:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '
')Eh, but you do pay don't you?

The peasants live with nothing. The "middle class," nothing more than what happens to peasants when energy is cheap for 100 years, is rapidly losing what it does have. The return to complete peasantry is nigh. But the ideology that suggests that there could be a permanent middle class without cheap and ready energy is . . . just an idea, nothing more.

When the oil is gone, and the coal is spent, and the natural gas doesn't flow anymore, there will, again, be only beast and man to cut the soil.

And good sir, the story never ends, despite attempts to end it.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby HeckuvaJob » Fri 13 Aug 2010, 22:31:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'E')xpatriot,

Considering that interest payments alone are around 7% of federal spending, a 95% reduction in federal government spending means debt default and anarchy. Lovely.

As for replacing taxes with import tariffs, we only import $2.2 trillion worth of stuff a year. You would need an 80% tariff just to replace current revenue, to say nothing of the impact on trade that kind of tariff would bring.


Well, I was being a bit fatuous, of course, but I essentially meant what I wrote.

Finally, we're in complete agreement, Expatriot.

fatuous adjective stupid, not correct, or not carefully thought about

My guess is that you meant to use facetious (not entirely serious about a subject in an attempt to be funny or to appear clever). The good news is that even if this is the case, your original statement still stands correct; your fatuousness still comes shining through!

Here we have an individual who, through his own hard work and sacrifice, overcame poverty and achieved success. Imagine, someone who cleaned toilets for $7/hour went on to become one of the top 1% wealthiest persons in the country. The elite. A power broker. A member of the ruling class (who fully expects one day to assume the title of "Lord"). And this was accomplished through sheer will, determination, sacrifice and hard work, not by any charity or hand-outs.

Unfortunately, being one of the top 1% wealthiest people isn't enough for Expatriot, and he now spends his time railing against the poor for stealing some slices of his sizable cake. Why are you not out enjoying the fruits of your hard-fought success? My guess is that this is not a financial decision.

Rather, I think we have someone who is insecure about his former poverty, someone who is ashamed of his heritage and by crushing the poor, hopes to eliminate any traces of his humble beginnings. Expatriot knows that just because you can afford William Fioravanti, doesn't mean you'll wear it well. Just because you use words like fatuous, doesn't mean you'll use them correctly. Do you understand what I'm saying, dude?

Expatriot, you are either a troll or the most miserable hypocrite on the planet.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 03:43:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '
')Eh, but you do pay don't you?

The peasants live with nothing. The "middle class," nothing more than what happens to peasants when energy is cheap for 100 years, is rapidly losing what it does have. The return to complete peasantry is nigh. But the ideology that suggests that there could be a permanent middle class without cheap and ready energy is . . . just an idea, nothing more.

When the oil is gone, and the coal is spent, and the natural gas doesn't flow anymore, there will, again, be only beast and man to cut the soil.

And good sir, the story never ends, despite attempts to end it.


And yet, there was a substantial middle class before the age of oil.

Ever read Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America?
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 08:23:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')nd yet, there was a substantial middle class before the age of oil.
Ever read Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America?


ADT was in America after the coal age had already begun in earnest.
After oil and coal and nat gas (and nuclear) are gone, there will be no middle class.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 08:52:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HeckuvaJob', 'M')y guess is that you meant to use facetious

No, I meant fatuous. Not a conventional usage, to be sure, but I'll leave it to English majors to restrict diction to formulaic application.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HeckuvaJob', 'U')nfortunately, being one of the top 1% wealthiest people isn't enough for Expatriot, and he now spends his time railing against the poor for stealing some slices of his sizable cake.

This is not what I wrote. I don't have an issue with people making 20 grand a year, or a family of 4 making 60 grand a year, paying next to nothing in Federal taxes.
My issue is with people like Ludi who proclaim inaccuracies like - "the middle class shoulders the main tax burden in America."
Point is, it's bad enough the system is so screwed up that people making 300 grand a year end up having to give over a third of it to the govt. The least, and I mean least, that the "poor" and "middle class" should do is STFU and not bitch that the "rich" aren't paying enough.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HeckuvaJob', 'W')hy are you not out enjoying the fruits of your hard-fought success? My guess is that this is not a financial decision.

Not sure what you mean. I get my enjoyment from growing a garden and raising animals. I don't spend money fatuously. It's one of the open secrets about accumulating wealth. While English majors run around checking for who/whom accuracy on their iPod 4s powered by their Toyota piouses, I weed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HeckuvaJob', 'R')ather, I think we have someone who is insecure about his former poverty, someone who is ashamed of his heritage and by crushing the poor, hopes to eliminate any traces of his humble beginnings.

Once again, my only complaint about the "poor" is that most of them are lazy and most of them are willfully ignorant. It would suit me well to have them figure out the structure, stop voting for douchebags like Bush and Obama, and get rid of all the govt. that is functionally suppressing them. If you met me out in public, you'd probably assume I was a poor man. I'm more comfortable in dirty 10$ Sprawlmart pants than a business suit.
The only shame I have regarding my heritage is that I was part of the late 20th century orgy of consumption.
There is no shame in poverty, there is only shame in lack of trying to exit it. Problem is, the gene pool is so broad that there will be, into the distant future, a very long and fat tail on the "lazy" end filled with people who have no ambition and who want to ride the oil age gravy train for as long as possible.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HeckuvaJob', 'E')xpatriot knows that just because you can afford William Fioravanti, doesn't mean you'll wear it well. Just because you use words like fatuous, doesn't mean you'll use them correctly. Do you understand what I'm saying, dude?
Don't know what W. Fioravanti is. My entire wardrobe was purchased new, over the years, for under 500 bucks, including the one suit I own for the now infrequent monkey suit gatherings.
But, dude, I do know what you're saying. I've met many people much like you, so it's not hard to understand your perspective. You prejudicially dislike people who are wealthy, you, like another poster in this thread, presume that wealthy people got to be that way unfairly, you believe that wealth should be taken from the wealthy, and you think my characterization of many of the current American poor as lazy, credulous, ignorant, and unambitious is unkind, while not untruthful. You believe the truth should generally not be stated if injurious or illiberal or unkind to the poor or downtrodden.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HeckuvaJob', 'E')xpatriot . . . or the most miserable hypocrite on the planet.
I have no idea why you would suggest this. Of all the things I've been labeled, hypocrite has never been one. If nothing else, my deeds and words have almost always been in concert. But I'll add it to the label heap, right on top of "fatuous".
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 08:55:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')My issue is with people like Ludi who proclaim inaccuracies like - "the middle class shoulders the main tax burden in America."


Please show where I posted that quote, I don't recall it.

You seem somewhat confused about what I have been saying.
Last edited by Ludi on Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:09:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby dsula » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 08:57:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HeckuvaJob', '
')Rather, I think we have someone who is insecure about his former poverty,
Expatriot, you are either a troll or the most miserable hypocrite on the planet.

No, Expat is somebody who rightfully thinks that his work belongs to himself and not to somebody else. If you show innovation, determination and take risk and work your ass of you will be successful and you deserve it. You start a business, you 'live' your business. You never take a vacation, you never take a sick day, you never enjoy a week-end. And even if you do, your thought are still with the business. That is called full commitment. And on top of that you provide jobs to the 'lemmings'. But the lazy still think it's not enough. Tax the successful, tax em more. We lazy want to be lazy a little more. We don't want to take a risk but we want all the benefits, we don't want to work more than 8 hours/day, we don't want to work week-ends and we want plenty of vacations. We want sick days and we want benefits. And we want overtime paid. Let's take it from the guy that works so hard. He has so much money he doesn't deserve it. Damn him.
Sometimes I wonder why I don't fire myself and collect unemployment benefits for a change.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:05:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', ' ')You start a business, you 'live' your business. You never take a vacation, you never take a sick day, you never enjoy a week-end.



I like to hope other self-employed folks manage their businesses well enough to be able to take some time "off." But maybe there is some kind of benefit to be able to talk about working so hard. I've not personally found it necessary to work so hard (except in little spurts), in fact, I'm a proponent of "slacking" as beneficial to our society at large. We could all strive to be less "productive," and reduce the need to earn. Productivity generally uses a lot of resources and produces lots of unnecessary junk. Unless you own one of the rare businesses which produce necessary items or services. I don't, personally. My work for money is entirely unnecessary.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:12:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')My issue is with people like Ludi who proclaim inaccuracies like - "the middle class shoulders the main tax burden in America."


Please show where I posted that quote, I don't recall it.

You seem somewhat confused about what I have been saying.

Not confused at all (I don't think!).
People like Ludi (which does not include Ludi) . . .
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby dsula » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:13:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ') I've not personally found it necessary to work so hard (except in little spurts).

Of course. That's the point. As I gatherd from some of your other post you actually make very little money, right? Therfore you almost don't pay any taxes, income, property, ans so forth. Even if you're not directly getting any goverment benefits (foodstamps and other) you indirectly are subsidized by having others pay more taxes for your slacking. And please don't get me wrong. I don't care if somebody is slacking or hard working. What I care about is that the guy who chooses to work hard has to pay for the slacker. If it were for me the whole world could be slacking, but I want the fruit of my work to be mine.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:14:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Expatriot', '
')Not confused at all (I don't think!).
People like Ludi (which does not include Ludi) . . .



Ok, thanks for clarifying!

People "like" me. Who say things I don't say.

Interesting. But not confused.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:15:10

To my mind, peasantry is quite dignified compared to welfare life. There is an honesty in working enough to subsist and keep the Lord from offing one's head. There is an honesty in Lording fairly also. There is such a thing as 'slum dignity' also. The hyper controlled environment of 1st world cities, where slum building is not acceptable, feeds off the hypocritical nature of the bougouisie. Where it's ok to see people living in a cardboard box, as long as their children have been stolen and put somewhere safe.
I prefer the Asian system, where the state does nothing for the poor, but it lets them build slums and raise their children in them. Personal choice and personal responsibility.
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Re: Big Brouhaha over Section 8 vouchers in Atlanta

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:17:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', ' ')What I care about is that the guy who chooses to work hard has to pay for the slacker. If it were for me the whole world could be slacking, but I want the fruit of my work to be mine.



Then why don't you do work which you can keep? There's an enormous amount of work which can be done which is not part of the money economy. It seems to me you want to be part of the money economy and society, but you don't want to have to pay for your share of it (the top percent of earners own most of the wealth, hence the largest share of the economy and society, power, etc).

Not sure where you get the idea I don't pay much in property taxes. :?: I don't have kids but I do pay for the schooling of others' children.
Last edited by Ludi on Sat 14 Aug 2010, 09:22:24, edited 1 time in total.
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