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THE Free Market Thread (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 03 Aug 2009, 20:41:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bodigami', 't')he free market is not really free if there are governments and capital is issued by central banks only. :!:


Where would we be without our gurus and their Secrets! 8O


hey, i am just making a case for anarchy (or acracia).
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby maxtechoil » Mon 05 Apr 2010, 10:54:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bodigami', 't')he free market is not really free if there are governments and capital is issued by central banks only. :!:


Where would we be without our gurus and their Secrets! 8O


Anarchy?
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 13 Jul 2010, 04:06:25

Any free market will not last because eventually some will have more wealth than others and will be working with others who also have lots of wealth to maintain their dominance. They will try to gain more wealth through combinations of manufacturing and casino capitalism. But because they also depend on others to buy their goods and services while keeping costs low, they'll try to keep wages low while increasing credit. This basically describes the current global free market capitalist system in place.

The first game changer is the result of increasing credit, which are credit bubbles bursting. We are seeing that right now. The second game changer is peak oil and generally a shortage in various resources due to increasing production and consumption of goods and services.

Given that, there's no debate for this issue. As long as we don't find more than enough oil or suitable replacements, then the current global economy will weaken significantly.
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby Stonemason » Thu 15 Jul 2010, 10:42:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'A')ny free market will not last because eventually some will have more wealth than others and will be working with others who also have lots of wealth to maintain their dominance. They will try to gain more wealth through combinations of manufacturing and casino capitalism. But because they also depend on others to buy their goods and services while keeping costs low, they'll try to keep wages low while increasing credit. This basically describes the current global free market capitalist system in place.


There has never been a free market. So to use current examples of mixed economies with 'crony/state/corporatist capitalism' would be counter-productive to the correct understanding of the theoretical "free market".

The thought that came to mind while reading your post is that cartels are extremely hard to maintain in a free market, and not only that, don't do much good for the cartel.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('David Friedman', 'W')hen the monopoly is shared by several firms who make up a cartel, the difficulties may be even greater.

A cartel is strongest in an industry where there is almost a natural monopoly. Suppose, for instance, that the optimum size of a firm is such that there is room for only four firms large enough to be efficient. They agree to raise prices for their mutual benefit. At the higher price the firms, which are now making a large profit on every item sold, would each like to produce and sell more. But, at the higher price, the total demand for their product is lower than before. They must in some way divide up the total amount of business.

A firm that sells more than its quota can greatly increase its profit. Each firm is tempted to 'chisel' on the agreement, to go to special customers and offer to sell them more at a slightly lower price 'under the counter', without letting the other members of the cartel know about it. As such chiseling becomes widespread, the cartel agreement effectively breaks down; this seems to be what happened to many of the short-lived cartels formed at the beginning of this century. 'Chiseling', of course, is what the other cartel members call it; from the standpoint of the rest of us it is a highly desirable form of behavior.

If a cartel manages to prevent chiseling among its members, it, like a monopoly, still has the problem of keeping new firms from being attracted into the industry by the high prices and consequent high profits. Even where there is almost a natural monopoly, such that any new competitor must be very large, this is difficult.

The obvious strategy of the cartel members is to tell any potential competitor that, as soon as he has sunk his capital into constructing a new firm, they will break up the cartel and return to competition. The new firm will then find himself the fifth firm in an area with room for only four. Either one of the firms will go broke or all will do badly. Either way, it does not look like a very attractive speculation. That strategy will work as long as the cartel does not raise prices much above their market level. When it does, a profitable counter-strategy becomes available. The potential competitor, before investing his capital in building a new firm, goes to the major customers of the cartel. He points out that if he does not start a new firm, the cartel will continue to charge them high prices, but that he cannot risk investing money until he has a guaranteed market. He therefore offers to start the new firm on condition that the customer agrees to buy from him, at a price high enough to
give him a good profit but well below the cartel's price, for some prearranged period of time.
Obviously, it is in the interest of the customers to agree. Once he has signed up a quarter of the total business, he builds his factories. Either the cartel restricts output still further, keeps its prices up, and accepts the loss of a quarter of the market, in which case the newcomer may eventually expand, or it competes for the customers the newcomer has not already tied up. Since there is only enough business to support three firms, one of the four goes broke.

Although an artificial monopoly or cartel may be able to influence prices slightly, and although it may succeed for a while in gaining additional profits at the cost of attracting new competitors, thus reducing its share of the market, any attempt to drive prices very far above their natural market level must lead to the monopoly's own destruction.

- "The Machinery of Freedom" pg 22 (I would recommend the chapters on monopoly in their entirety for an enjoyable empirical analysis)
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 26 Jul 2010, 03:50:52

There are free markets, but they always involve barter and can be found among remaining indigenous tribes.
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby americandream » Mon 26 Jul 2010, 06:11:23

Free markets as we understand them, are characterised by the accumulation of surplus value from industrial labour, a factor which is missing in all pre-capitalist societies including the feudal with its craftsman's guilds. The very basis of capitalist value is determined by the availability of said surplus on which the secondary tier of values such as land, commodities and intangibles (such as sub-prime mortgages) are based. Feudal societies, in contrast, drew value primarily from land. Tribal societies based on barter as exchange, in contrast, on livestock and other necessities for the survival of the clan, barter merely being an incidental where paths crossed. There weren't for example bartering persons who issued derivatives based on the nature of their bartering exchanges.

So to extent that primitive barter involved free exchange, any similarity with free markets ended there. Free markets are in essence the inheritors of the fuedal, confined as it was by the limits to land.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'T')here are free markets, but they always involve barter and can be found among remaining indigenous tribes.
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby ralfy » Wed 28 Jul 2010, 12:46:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'F')ree markets as we understand them, are characterised by the accumulation of surplus value from industrial labour, a factor which is missing in all pre-capitalist societies including the feudal with its craftsman's guilds. The very basis of capitalist value is determined by the availability of said surplus on which the secondary tier of values such as land, commodities and intangibles (such as sub-prime mortgages) are based. Feudal societies, in contrast, drew value primarily from land. Tribal societies based on barter as exchange, in contrast, on livestock and other necessities for the survival of the clan, barter merely being an incidental where paths crossed. There weren't for example bartering persons who issued derivatives based on the nature of their bartering exchanges.

So to extent that primitive barter involved free exchange, any similarity with free markets ended there. Free markets are in essence the inheritors of the fuedal, confined as it was by the limits to land.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'T')here are free markets, but they always involve barter and can be found among remaining indigenous tribes.


Yes, I'm referring to the general idea of a free market, not necessarily free market capitalism.
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 28 Jul 2010, 14:07:03

once people's retirement was no longer in the hands of the company or union but in their private 401k, it became a pot of gold for anyone that could strip consumers of that capital. Lower wages and prolonged unemployment force people to unload that "excess."
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 28 Jul 2010, 14:11:04

The only problem with the "free market" is that it's now a global free market. That means firstworld living standards are going to be ground down to level out with the third world. That might be swell for for folks in Bangalore, but sorry I don't live in Bangalore.

If nothing else, this process of un-developing is a national security problem. Could we have won WWII if beforehand we'd shipped our industrial base to China?

I'm all for the free market, as long as it's a national rather than global free market.
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 30 Jul 2010, 15:36:16

You probably have to consider the contradictions of this issue, i.e., if you want a middle class lifestyle (which includes being able to access this forum), then you'll need a global free market. In which case, part of "developing" is having a global free market. The absence of such may lead to "un-developing," which leads to a "national" free market but is also a "national security problem."
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby americandream » Fri 30 Jul 2010, 16:42:19

The one and the same thing.

Contemplating capitalism without its fully mature state, complete globalisation of the profit process, is equivalent to contemplating a life on earth as an infant or child with none of the processes leading us to maturation, and finally death, our offspring representing our synthesis with another.

As for globalisation being a threat to natonal security, whose national security is perhaps more appropriate. Given that the modern state was premised around more parochial forms of early capitalism, whither the national interest in a global economy of mobile capital?

All that will be left of these early forms of parochialism will be the tatters of cultural forms necessary for the profitable operation of the global profit machine with the only conflict of any substance being competition for market share. A deflationary process both in terms of profit and wages and ultimately, the driver for world revolution.

These are objective forces. Spontaneous and timely.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'F')ree markets as we understand them, are characterised by the accumulation of surplus value from industrial labour, a factor which is missing in all pre-capitalist societies including the feudal with its craftsman's guilds. The very basis of capitalist value is determined by the availability of said surplus on which the secondary tier of values such as land, commodities and intangibles (such as sub-prime mortgages) are based. Feudal societies, in contrast, drew value primarily from land. Tribal societies based on barter as exchange, in contrast, on livestock and other necessities for the survival of the clan, barter merely being an incidental where paths crossed. There weren't for example bartering persons who issued derivatives based on the nature of their bartering exchanges.

So to extent that primitive barter involved free exchange, any similarity with free markets ended there. Free markets are in essence the inheritors of the fuedal, confined as it was by the limits to land.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'T')here are free markets, but they always involve barter and can be found among remaining indigenous tribes.


Yes, I'm referring to the general idea of a free market, not necessarily free market capitalism.
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Re: The Free Market Debate

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 10 Aug 2010, 11:55:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'T')he one and the same thing.

Contemplating capitalism without its fully mature state, complete globalisation of the profit process, is equivalent to contemplating a life on earth as an infant or child with none of the processes leading us to maturation, and finally death, our offspring representing our synthesis with another.

As for globalisation being a threat to natonal security, whose national security is perhaps more appropriate. Given that the modern state was premised around more parochial forms of early capitalism, whither the national interest in a global economy of mobile capital?

All that will be left of these early forms of parochialism will be the tatters of cultural forms necessary for the profitable operation of the global profit machine with the only conflict of any substance being competition for market share. A deflationary process both in terms of profit and wages and ultimately, the driver for world revolution.

These are objective forces. Spontaneous and timely.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'F')ree markets as we understand them, are characterised by the accumulation of surplus value from industrial labour, a factor which is missing in all pre-capitalist societies including the feudal with its craftsman's guilds. The very basis of capitalist value is determined by the availability of said surplus on which the secondary tier of values such as land, commodities and intangibles (such as sub-prime mortgages) are based. Feudal societies, in contrast, drew value primarily from land. Tribal societies based on barter as exchange, in contrast, on livestock and other necessities for the survival of the clan, barter merely being an incidental where paths crossed. There weren't for example bartering persons who issued derivatives based on the nature of their bartering exchanges.

So to extent that primitive barter involved free exchange, any similarity with free markets ended there. Free markets are in essence the inheritors of the fuedal, confined as it was by the limits to land.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'T')here are free markets, but they always involve barter and can be found among remaining indigenous tribes.


Yes, I'm referring to the general idea of a free market, not necessarily free market capitalism.


That's my point: you can have a free market, and then some become more powerful, and you end up with free market capitalism. That means the claim that free markets don't exist isn't true. Otherwise, "maturation" can't take place.
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