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PM evokes specter of "depression"

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Nickel » Wed 17 Dec 2008, 16:54:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '1'). Loss of income from exports to US will hurt badly.


You'd need to quantify that. It's an absolute that could be said at any time. What are the projections? Keep in mind there's a lot the States buys from us that they NEED, not want.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '2'). Reduction of imports from US will hurt badly.


Again, this needs quantification; secondly, why would limiting our imports hurt us?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')nd reduction of imports from US also means Canadian job losses (distribution networks, services etc.).


What makes you so sure this wouldn't, in fact, represent a boon for domestic suppliers?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'U')S is the most substantial trade partner to Canada (~80% of Canadian exports go there).


That's true, but less than 30% of the Canadian economy is export-based.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'I')t is global system, what is collapsing so there is nowhere to hide.


You need to get over the idea, as I said before, that what you see happening in Peoria on CNN is happening everywhere in the world, and to the same extent. It isn't, for a variety of reasons. It's not good, but it's not equally and universally bad. The biggest f*ck-ups are the US and UK, and for pretty much the same reasons.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 17 Dec 2008, 17:34:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '1'). Loss of income from exports to US will hurt badly.


You'd need to quantify that. It's an absolute that could be said at any time. What are the projections? Keep in mind there's a lot the States buys from us that they NEED, not want.

Obviously I cannot quantify it because I do not know the future.
I dont know how fast economic contraction will proceed etc.
However if lets say 50% of American Imports are canceled, Canadian economy would shrink by more than 10%.

Your argument is that they must buy certain Canadian goods like NG or oil.
However dollar prices of these goods are deflating right now... and US dollar is losing its value.

All of that is not encouraging.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '2'). Reduction of imports from US will hurt badly.


Again, this needs quantification; secondly, why would limiting our imports hurt us?

Again, no one know exact future.
On the other hand it is unlikely for Canada to build manufacturing capacity to provide most of goods which was imported from US up to date.
If American company supplying the world collapsed, why should similar company located in Canada be viable?

Why it would hurt?
Distribution, sales and servicing jobs related to particular items would be lost if domestic production is not undertaken.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'U')S is the most substantial trade partner to Canada (~80% of Canadian exports go there).

That's true, but less than 30% of the Canadian economy is export-based.
And loss of half of export revenue will set depression in Canada.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou need to get over the idea, as I said before, that what you see happening in Peoria on CNN is happening everywhere in the world, and to the same extent. It isn't, for a variety of reasons. It's not good, but it's not equally and universally bad. The biggest f*ck-ups are the US and UK, and for pretty much the same reasons.
Most of EU nations are in substantial mess too. Don't count on them. They are buying NG and oil from Russia and ME.
Britain is struggling badly, but do you really think that Italy is doing any better?
Do you really think that German attempts to save auto industry there will work, if global market for cars is shrinking?

Russia is in mess (related to collapse of oil price) and Canada should watch it closely.

China is in mess (67000 factories closed recently, plenty of riots etc).
In fact I have no faith in bright future of Chinese economy at all.
I suspect, we will see some spectacular collapse there in coming years if not months. That may well result in brake up of country.

So where Canada should sell her resources to substitute loss of US trade?
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Kristen » Wed 17 Dec 2008, 18:26:10

I'm sure Canada will be a cake walk compared to the U.S. Don't worry so much, these things are beyond our control.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Wed 17 Dec 2008, 23:23:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kristen', 'D')on't worry so much, these things are beyond our control.


To borrow from Machiavelli, a flood is beyond our control as well. Building above the flood plane however, is not. We may not be able to stop the course of misfortune, but we can certainly mitigate it through our choices.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Snowrunner » Wed 17 Dec 2008, 23:36:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'S')o where Canada should sell her resources to substitute loss of US trade?


The thing is that during the collapse there is little Canada can do to isolate itself against it, even though Harper until recently thought that was the case (or at least he claimed so).

Realistically Canada will be hit hard as well, but if we had some smart politicians in this country they would try to avoid the worst:

1. Close the trapdoor that is NAFTA, nothing good can come out of it.
2. Expand the social safety net for the workers that are about to get the boot.
3. Build up public infrastructure and lay the groundwork for a distributed manufacturing sector.

Canada has ALL the ingridients it needs to weather the storm but right now we have Captain Ahab on the bridge yelling obscenities and being utterly fixated on the whale.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 04:02:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', '
')1. Close the trapdoor that is NAFTA, nothing good can come out of it.

I have identified this problem on number of occasions, also in this thread.
However I consider Canadian politicians to be too corrupt to even consider that.
And US would do all what they can to prevent it.
They could even consider military aggression in worst case scenario.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2'). Expand the social safety net for the workers that are about to get the boot.

That would have to come from increase of taxes, not deficit spending.
Further economic slowdown would result.

Would you like to pay higher taxes, if you still have a job?
What is a general feeling in Canadian population about tax increase?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '3'). Build up public infrastructure and lay the groundwork for a distributed manufacturing sector.

What in particular would you like to build?
Roads?
Rail?
New government buildings?
Power plants?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')anada has ALL the ingridients it needs to weather the storm but right now we have Captain Ahab on the bridge yelling obscenities and being utterly fixated on the whale.

Due to natural wealth (oil, gas, minerals etc.) and low population Canada is in better situation than many others.

However Yanks are considering these to be rather American, not Canadian resources. :(
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Nickel » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:08:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'O')bviously I cannot quantify it because I do not know the future.


Uh huh...


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'I') dont know how fast economic contraction will proceed etc.


Well, you're sure tossing around a lot of absolutes for someone who "doesn't know".


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'H')owever if lets say 50% of American Imports are canceled, Canadian economy would shrink by more than 10%.


And? Who's disputing that? Though my own feeling is that such a contraction is unlikely. My point, however, if you'll recall -- the one you took issue with -- was that the government needs to identify strategic sectors of the economy to target stimulus packages to preserve jobs, strengthen businesses, and maintain and build confidence in the economy. All you've been doing is running around trying to convince us it's pointless without ever backing it up with a single fact. Anytime you're asked to, you just hedge, change the subject, or tell us you don't have a crystal ball.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')ll of that is not encouraging.


No, but it's no call to inaction, either. Quite the contrary.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '2'). Reduction of imports from US will hurt badly.

Again, this needs quantification; secondly, why would limiting our imports hurt us?
Again, no one know exact future.

Yes... so you've said. So why are you so damn sure we're damned? Why so sure it's pointless to apply tax money assiduously? Your crystal ball is pretty selective in the channels it gets, my friend.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'I')f American company supplying the world collapsed, why should similar company located in Canada be viable?

There are no guarantees, but there are a lot of possible answers to this. We're a separate country with a separate currency; we set our own interest rates as befits the needs or our own economy; our labour is less expensive because our dollar is worth less than the US dollar or the euro, and because our major health care benefits are a function of the state, not contractual obligations of employers; our work force is typically located close to the resources they use; and we have an expanding network of trade agreements with other countries because we're used to negotiating with others instead of just demanding everything be done our way. Combine that with the fact that we haven't been larding on double deficits for years and the recently-demonstrated resiliency of our relatively conservative banking system, and it becomes clear that we do have some high cards to play, if they're played well and at the right times.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'D')istribution, sales and servicing jobs related to particular items would be lost if domestic production is not undertaken.

This assumes that it wouldn't be, and it also assumes that we wouldn't find customers for the things we'd ordinarily sell to the US. With the euro fetching a buck-seventy-five Canadian, our stuff is still pretty cheap over there. We just haven't had much call to throw much beyond the fence at the 49th parallel, and it's long past time we did.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')nd loss of half of export revenue will set depression in Canada.

Again, how does this come to the issue of the government spending money to maintain jobs and business sectors?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'B')ritain is struggling badly, but do you really think that Italy is doing any better?

As a matter of fact, yes. None of the eurozone economies are in as bad shape as Britain's. That's why the Brits are suddenly muttering about adopting the euro. No one's murmuring about adopting the pound.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'D')o you really think that German attempts to save auto industry there will work, if global market for cars is shrinking?

It's all or nothing with you, obviously. To you, losing a finger is losing a hand, so cut off the arm. Most people would save the rest. You should, too... and then later I can give you the finger. :)
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Nickel » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:14:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', '1'). Close the trapdoor that is NAFTA, nothing good can come out of it.
2. Expand the social safety net for the workers that are about to get the boot.
3. Build up public infrastructure and lay the groundwork for a distributed manufacturing sector.

Canada has ALL the ingridients it needs to weather the storm but right now we have Captain Ahab on the bridge yelling obscenities and being utterly fixated on the whale.


I'm in basic agreement except on NAFTA. Things are going to get tight with the slowdown in the US. I don't think this is the time to find ways to shrink that window even smaller ourselves. It's like prescribing lard injections to cure angina. I was never a proponent of the FTA or NAFTA, but they're here, they've turned a lot of companies north-looking for less expensive products and resources, and unless NAFTA becomes an existential threat to Canada -- and I'm not convinced it is that -- I think all we'd be doing is launching a round of tariffs and countervailing tariffs, and I don't see us coming out ahead in that.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Nickel » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:33:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'T')hey could even consider military aggression in worst case scenario.


There wouldn't be a military aspect; the president-elect himself was campaigning to "re-open" the deal because a lot of people in the US think they're getting shafted (particularly by Mexico). Frankly, scrapping NAFTA would probably please a lot of people on Main Street, USA -- at least initially. They'd raise the tariff walls and tell themselves they were doing a good thing as life got more and more expensive.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2'). Expand the social safety net for the workers that are about to get the boot.

That would have to come from increase of taxes, not deficit spending.
Further economic slowdown would result.


This if flabby, fatuous thinking. Taken to its inevitable conclusion, this line of argument denies the existence of an economy in a regime in which there any taxes, whatsoever. That's obviously not the case. Anyone who's not arguing in beerhall absolutes would be forced to admit that it's possible to vary taxes without an overall negative impact on the economy. The real question is, how are those revenues raised, who pays them, and how they're attenuated in reflection of the state of the economy.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'W')ould you like to pay higher taxes, if you still have a job?


Like? No. Be willing to for the sake of the country? Definitely. The question is, how much? And are the wealthy contributing their fair share?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'W')hat is a general feeling in Canadian population about tax increase?

You'd have to poll to find that out, but in my experience, Canadians have a more liberal and mature outlook on taxation than people in the US, generally speaking. I think people are prepared for a rise in taxes, though no one, of course, would be pleased about it.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'D')ue to natural wealth (oil, gas, minerals etc.) and low population Canada is in better situation than many others.

Now we come to the crux of the matter. You've asked where we're going to sell our goods, if not to the US. We're only 0.5% of the population of the world... 33 million people, or so. It really does not take all that much consumption on the part of the other 99.5% of humanity to soak up the excess that we ourselves are not using at any given time. The job for our government and businesses is to get up out of the comfortable, US-facing easy chairs they've inhabited for generations, and start finding customers and making deals. It's a big, big world out there, and even in the hardest times there's someone doing well, someone who needs goods, services, and resources. And we don't need all that many big customers to float a few million jobs.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby deMolay » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 10:27:49

Nickell you are out to lunch. You have to be a Gubmint employee. "You'd have to poll to find that out, but in my experience, Canadians have a more liberal and mature outlook on taxation than people in the US, generally speaking. I think people are prepared for a rise in taxes, though no one, of course, would be pleased about it." Only a leftwing retard could make a statement like that. The average working class Canadian now pays more in Taxes than they do for the necessities of life. Taxes take more out of the average family budget in Canada than Food, Clothing, Housing and Transportation combined. Taxes have risen 1800% since 1961. You need to get back on your meds or something, you are being consumed with your own leftwing socialist drivel. To my American cousins just google taxation levels in Canada. Total public debt in Canada. etc. Nickell is not a liar, she just tells the truth to suit her own purpose.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Nickel » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:06:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'N')ickell you are out to lunch. ...Only a leftwing retard could make a statement like that.


You think "nickel" has two L's in it, but I'm the retard, huh? You're misunderestimating me! :lol:


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'T')he average working class Canadian now pays more in Taxes than they do for the necessities of life. Taxes take more out of the average family budget in Canada than Food, Clothing, Housing and Transportation combined. Taxes have risen 1800% since 1961.


Actually, they've gone up 35.5% since 1961. 45.4% of average income (2008) divided by 33.5% of average income (1961) is actually 135.5%, not 1800%. This is according to the FT article you're misquoting, which, by the way, claims 1700%, not 1800%. Try to keep your misrepresentations straight, please. Touch base with the other greedheads and talk the party line.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'Y')ou need to get back on your meds or something


Speaking of meds...

So, yeah... if Ralph Kramden showed up tomorrow morning and had to pay 2008 taxes, he'd have a heart attack. But you know what he'd have now if he did he wouldn't have had in 1961? Medicare. He and Alice wouldn't have to move in with his mother-in-law because they'd lost the house now... thanks to that rise in taxes. There are a number of things we weren't paying for as a society in 1961 that we do now, too. Not a lot of superhighways or multi-terminal international airports in 1961 to move our commerce around or take us to vacations most people couldn't even dream of 50 years ago. Come to think of it, people used to scrimp and save for years to buy a television set back then, and take it home in their single car. Now people seem to be able to afford HDTVs, video game systems, home computers and home theatres, cell phones, pay-per-view cable, 4000 sq. ft. homes with garages for their two cars... how odd, given that the government is taking all our money when we had so much fifty years ago.

Women work now. We've tapped into a great, unrealized resource in our society, created surplus wealth, and it's permitted us to live better both as individuals and as a society by being able to raise our standard of living and at the same time our participation in the funding of the state. Society in 2008 is, in so many ways, not at all what it typically was in 1961. But, of course, those are facts inconvient for a fellow like you to take into account when trying to paint someone else as a "not a liar" (feint praise, hmm?). But I won't condemn you as "not a liar", Moley... more like someone who plays fast and lose with the facts. Or, if I'm giving you too much credit there, perhaps just an ignoramus.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'T')o my American cousins just google taxation levels in Canada.


Yeah, they're available on NationMaster. Here's a fascinating look at our relative ranking, and total tax slice per worker, compared to the US and UK...

#20 Canada: 30.2%
#21 United States: 30%
#22 United Kingdom: 29.7%
Weighted average (world): 37.3%
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:09:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '
')#20 Canada: 30.2%
#21 United States: 30%
#22 United Kingdom: 29.7%
Weighted average (world): 37.3%


So this idea that socialized health care leads to higher taxes is just so much bullpucky.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Nickel » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:16:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '
')#20 Canada: 30.2%
#21 United States: 30%
#22 United Kingdom: 29.7%
Weighted average (world): 37.3%


So this idea that socialized health care leads to higher taxes is just so much bullpucky.


Well, if we were spending trillions we don't have on orphan-powered aircraft carriers and glow-in-the-dark invisible flatulence-detectors for the Army, our taxes would be much higher, necessarily. So really, it comes down to what you spend it on.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby deMolay » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 13:05:52

I would never accuse you of lying Nickell, as all Liberals you merely tell the truth to suit your own purpose. The actual increas in taxes was 1780% and I rounded it up to 1800...The Fraser Institute



Apr 24, 2008 06:00 ETThe Fraser Institute: Total Tax Bill for Average Canadian Family Has Increased by More Than 1,700 Per Cent Since 1961
VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA--(Marketwire - April 24, 2008) - The total tax bill of the average Canadian family has increased by more than 1,700 per cent since 1961, according to a new book, Tax Facts 15, released today by independent research organization The Fraser Institute.

Canadians' total tax bill now accounts for more of the family budget than food, clothing and shelter combined. In contrast to the jump in taxes, the average family's expenditures on shelter increased by 1,063 per cent, food by 505 per cent and clothing by 455 per cent.

"Taxes have crept into virtually every aspect of Canadians' daily lives," said Niels Veldhuis, co-author of Tax Facts 15 and director of fiscal studies at the Fraser Institute.

"As a result, the average Canadian family's biggest total expense is taxation. Families are paying more in taxes than they spend on food, clothing, and shelter."

Tax Facts 15 provides a wide-ranging overview of Canada's tax system and the amount of taxes Canadians pay including direct taxes such as income taxes, Employment Insurance and Canadian Pension Plan contributions, and indirect or "hidden" taxes such as sales taxes, excise taxes on tobacco and alcohol, amusement taxes, and gas taxes. The book also contains an update of the popular Canadian Consumer Tax Index, which tracks the total tax bill of the average Canadian family over time.

In 2007, the average Canadian family earned $66,496 and paid $30,213 in total taxes. On a percentage basis, the average Canadian family gave 45.4 per cent of its income to governments in the form of taxes while spending 34.9 per cent of its income to provide itself with food, clothing, and shelter.

Back in 1961, the average family earned $5,000 and paid just $1,675 in taxes. That works out to 33.5 per cent of its income spent on taxes while 56.5 per cent was spent on food, clothing and shelter.

Veldhuis points out that most Canadians are aware that income taxes are the single largest tax they pay, but many don't realize that income tax represents less than half of their total tax bill. Income taxes accounted for only 34.7 per cent of the taxes the average Canadian family paid in 2007. Two-thirds of an average family's tax bill is made up of many hidden or indirect taxes that are often built into the price of goods and services and identified to the final consumer as a tax.

"As Canadians grapple with the stress and anxiety of completing their income tax returns, any discussion of taxes naturally tends to focus on income taxes. But personal income taxes account for slightly more than one-third of the total tax bill faced by the average Canadian family in 2007 with a wide array of hidden and indirect taxes making up the remainder," Veldhuis added.

Tax Facts 15 also addresses the claims by some in the media and many social-activist groups that "the rich" pay no taxes. An examination of the relative income and tax position of Canadians shows that the largest portion of the tax burden ultimately settles on higher income groups.

In 2007, the top 30 per cent of families earned 60.1 per cent of all income in Canada and paid 65.9 per cent of all taxes. The bottom 30 per cent earned 8.4 per cent of all income and paid 4.8 per cent of all taxes. A Canadian family is included in the top 30 per cent when its income exceeds $81,501.

The income mobility of Canadians is an important part of any discussion about the fairness of Canada's tax system. Most young people start out in the low-income group and work up to the middle or high-income group. Given their initial lack of experience, their incomes start out low. Their incomes peak when they hit middle age (the prime earning years) and then begin to fall as they approach retirement.

"Over time, there is much less inequality than a snapshot of the income distribution at any one time suggests," Veldhuis said.

"Income mobility data have repeatedly shown there is not a permanent underclass in Canada stuck in a low income group."

The book also demonstrates how the Canadian tax system penalizes someone who works their way up the income ladder during their career.

"Canada's progressive tax system imposes an ever increasing burden on people as they earn more income," Veldhuis said.

"Clearly Canada's tax system is sending the wrong message when it penalizes people for being successful."

The Fraser Institute is an independent research and educational organization with offices in Calgary, Montreal, Tampa, Toronto, and Vancouver. Its mission is to measure, study, and communicate the impact of competitive markets and government intervention on the welfare of individuals. To protect the Institute's independence, it does not accept grants from governments or contracts for research. Visit www.fraserinstitute.org.




For more information, please contact

The Fraser Institute - Media Contact
Niels Veldhuis
Director of Fiscal Studies
(604) 714-4546
Email: niels.veldhuis@fraserinstitute.org

or

The Fraser Institute
Dean Pelkey
Director of Communications
(604) 714-4582
Email: dean.pelkey@fraserinstitute.org
Website: www.fraserinstitute.org
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 13:39:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'I') would never accuse you of lying Nickell, as all Liberals you merely tell the truth to suit your own purpose.


Something non-Liberals never ever do!
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Snowrunner » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 13:42:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', '
')1. Close the trapdoor that is NAFTA, nothing good can come out of it.

I have identified this problem on number of occasions, also in this thread.
However I consider Canadian politicians to be too corrupt to even consider that.
And US would do all what they can to prevent it.
They could even consider military aggression in worst case scenario.


Yes, there is a chance that the US would try it even militarily, I don't think the ability exists anymore though. The National Guard would question why they should do it, and the regular military is still playing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If there ever was a good time to get out of it, now would be it while the US is completely distracted on many different fronts.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2'). Expand the social safety net for the workers that are about to get the boot.

That would have to come from increase of taxes, not deficit spending.
Further economic slowdown would result.

Would you like to pay higher taxes, if you still have a job?
What is a general feeling in Canadian population about tax increase?


Depends on who you talk to. The loudmouths will yell bloody murder, the average Canadian though I think does realize that they do get something for their taxes in return.

How would I feel about a tax raise? Depends on what kind of raise but in general I am not utterly against it if it is used for something that in the long term benefits me as well.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '3'). Build up public infrastructure and lay the groundwork for a distributed manufacturing sector.
What in particular would you like to build?
Roads?
Rail?
New government buildings?
Power plants?

Roads could uses some major upgrades in most areas, public transit in large cities like Toronto is falling apart and places like the lower mainland could seriously need an expansion beyond the bus.

A highspeed raillink through the Prairies would be a "slam dunk" as it is flat as a pancake and would connect the country together.

Yes, powerplants too, though I am thinking more about the expansion of alternative sources, e.g. wave power generation and wind generation.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')anada has ALL the ingridients it needs to weather the storm but right now we have Captain Ahab on the bridge yelling obscenities and being utterly fixated on the whale.
Due to natural wealth (oil, gas, minerals etc.) and low population Canada is in better situation than many others.

However Yanks are considering these to be rather American, not Canadian resources. :(

Again, the Yanks are pretty distracted right now, they do not have the military ability to do anything in North America outside of shaking their first.

I doubt an invasion of Canada would be taken too kindly by either Canadians or the rest of the world for that matter, if the current / next Administration wants to completely isolate itself in the world they'd do it, but in that case as an American I would not want to travel anywhere outside of the United States.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Snowrunner » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 13:46:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', 'I')'m in basic agreement except on NAFTA. Things are going to get tight with the slowdown in the US. I don't think this is the time to find ways to shrink that window even smaller ourselves. It's like prescribing lard injections to cure angina. I was never a proponent of the FTA or NAFTA, but they're here, they've turned a lot of companies north-looking for less expensive products and resources, and unless NAFTA becomes an existential threat to Canada -- and I'm not convinced it is that -- I think all we'd be doing is launching a round of tariffs and countervailing tariffs, and I don't see us coming out ahead in that.


With the US Dollar going to crash the US won't be able to afford anything up there in the Great White North anymore. Any producer who still clinges to this is going to go under anyway.

What NAFTA DOES though (and has proven to be) is that it gives the US influence in Canadian politics (e.g. the whole Softwood lumber thing).

Think of NAFTA as a rope that has two swimmers tied together. One is about to drown and is starting to trash around. What do you think the other guy should do?
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Snowrunner » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 13:50:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'T')he Fraser Institute


Hi hi hi.

It's funny that you accuse Nickel of "bending reality" to his own agenda and then you quote the Fraser Institute. They aren't really agenda free, now are they? :)

The truth lies probably somewhere in the middle.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Nickel » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 14:28:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'I') would never accuse you of lying Nickell, as all Liberals you merely tell the truth to suit your own purpose. The actual increas in taxes was 1780% and I rounded it up to 1800...The Fraser Institute


Ah, yes, the Fraser Institute. Marx and Engels for the right-wing. Yes, you're quoting the exact same article I mentioned.

Using their figures, which are, of course, at best debatable and at worst, spun, we can safely say that 45.4% of something is 35.5% larger in proportion to 33.5% of something else, not 1700%. Now, if Canadians today were STILL making only five grand, but paying thirty grand a year in taxes instead of sixteen hundred or so, then yes, you and the Fraser Institute would be justified in saying taxes had gone up 1700%. Alternatively, if Canadians in 1961 had been earning $5,000 but paying only $17.77 in tax, than, again, it would be completely true to say taxes had gone up 1700%. But obviously, we don't, and they didn't, so it's bullshit.

What it is correct, and fair, to say using their figures is the following: since 1961, over time, Canadians have come to pay 11.9% more of their income in taxes, which represents a increase of 35.5% over the rate in 1961.
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Re: PM evokes specter of "depression"

Unread postby Nickel » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 14:31:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', 'T')hink of NAFTA as a rope that has two swimmers tied together. One is about to drown and is starting to trash around. What do you think the other guy should do?


...Help him? :)
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