[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'I')f Omega Point creates a strong intelligence, it would be functionally equivalent to the concept we hold for 'God'.

[rsch20]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'I')f Omega Point creates a strong intelligence, it would be functionally equivalent to the concept we hold for 'God'.

[rsch20]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lowem', 'W')onderful - was wondering when the peakoilers and the technocracy/singularity folks were gonna have a get-together.

So, are we ever gonna be a Type 1 Civilization, or a failed Type 0?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')abilities postulated for a strong-ai include the capacity to re-create not only every person who ever lived, but every person that could have lived. seems pretty god-like to me, the elimination of aging and disease, the ability to 'simluate' other universes. the list of potential god-like powers goes on and on.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')what I find really ironic, is that if we don't reach an omega point, then basically we FAIL. all other scenarios involve us either dying off completely or basically going back to the trees.

[UIUCstudent01]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', 'i')f thats the case then why the debate and lawsuits. i wasn't aware that it's a fringe group trying to change our education system. if 'mainstream christianity' accepts Evolution, then why are they not stepping forward and saying so? why is homeschooling becoming so popular in the bible belt, for the specific reason of teaching Intelligent Design?

[rsch20]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')abilities postulated for a strong-ai include the capacity to re-create not only every person who ever lived, but every person that could have lived. seems pretty god-like to me, the elimination of aging and disease, the ability to 'simluate' other universes. the list of potential god-like powers goes on and on.

[rsch20]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')what I find really ironic, is that if we don't reach an omega point, then basically we FAIL. all other scenarios involve us either dying off completely or basically going back to the trees.

[lowem]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '.'). we have or may possibly damage this planet to the point where it won't be able to recover and start again as it did with the dinosaurs, if we don't advance enough to save the planet pretty soon we could destroy it instead, and not just in the ego-sense of wiping ourselves out, but in the sense of damaging the earths ability to support life at all

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '.'). we have or may possibly damage this planet to the point where it won't be able to recover and start again as it did with the dinosaurs, if we don't advance enough to save the planet pretty soon we could destroy it instead, and not just in the ego-sense of wiping ourselves out, but in the sense of damaging the earths ability to support life at all

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')I find your point of view to be horrendously dangerous, a point of view which is directly leading to the destruction of the Earth's life systems. This belief that we need to "advance" before we can live in a way which is less damaging.

[Ludi]

*slapping head*

We already have the technology to undo a great deal of the damage we've done! These technologies simply are not being implemented. Why would waiting around for Omega Point make it more likely for these existing technologies to be implemented?

This just kills me.

Omnitir, you are a young person, with great enthusiasm. I wish you could open your mind to the possibility that there is information of which you are unaware. If you are indeed interested in the future, in the life systems of the planet, I encourage you to please look beyond your particular area of interest (futuristic high tech) and learn more about the existing technologies we have at our disposal. You might become intrigued by these even more than by futuristic high tech. Really, they're pretty darn neat. Please get Mollison's book. It's rather expensive, so try to get it from interlibrary loan. I think you will be encouraged by what is available ot us now if only we would implement it.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')Reaching “Omega point” is reaching that utopic point where we can undo the damage our species did “growing up” as it were, and finally start living sustainable as a responsible intelligent species. If we fail to reach this point, either because we choose to waste our efforts on powerdown ideals or our current consumption trends, then our ultimate destruction is certain.

[Omnitir]

Thanks Ludi, Mollison’s book does look interesting, and I’ve now got a copy on hold at my university. I’m hoping to be enlightened on existing techniques and technologies that could help save the world.

Oh, and believe me Ludi, I'm well aware that there is a massive world out there full of information of which I am unaware. In fact that's the whole reason I'm a student.

Now I’ll try to make my position a little more clear. Regarding our future, there seems to essentially be two main positions to take: either we should aim for a complex high-tech future by continuing on our current path of endless consumption and growth, or we should aim for a more simple agricultural based future with emphasis on sustainability and waste reducing efficiency.

I get a strong impression that people believe these are our only choices for the future. However, I believe that things need not be so black and white, and that we should aim for a future somewhere in between. I believe that we do need to powerdown to a degree, but only in the sense of aiming to improve efficiency and reduce waste. Constant technological and intellectual growth is necessary if humanity is to survive the long term.

It’s a bit like being in an aircraft at sea that is about to run out of fuel because of poor fuel management. The powerdown people want to cut power to the engines and glide, hoping to last as long as possible but not cause any more consumption. The tech enthusiasts want to go full power hoping to quickly get to land, while those in-between (like myself) want to reduce power but keep moving forward, to give the greatest chance of finding land.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Why would waiting around for Omega Point make it more likely for these existing technologies to be implemented?

[Auntie_Cipation]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', ' ')if humanity as a race gets wiped out by nukes or an ice age, or if peak oil forces us to give up on technology in favor of living a more rural and agrarian lifestyle, then we fail at the only form of purpose that we can actually point to.

[Ludi]

I'm glad you're interested in Mollison's book, Omnitir. David Holmgren is another author working in the same field.

I don't personally support the idea of "returning to a simpler way of life." There's no need to do so with all the knowledge we have of Earth's life systems and the drive to learn more. I have nothing against knowledge and learning. What I do have a problem with is sitting around doing nothing waiting for a future which may never arrive. I can't afford to do that, I live for today. So, I say to you who live in the high-tech future, enjoy it, but it isn't for me. I won't be living then, likely as not, and I have no ability to affect that outcome. As I've mentioned to you before, Omnitir, I am very much against empty boosterism. I don't understand it. It makes me all depressed. I guess I'm a person of action, myself.

Rsch20, humans will never "give up technology." Technology is part of what makes us human, and always has been; even before Homo sapiens, Homo habilis (handy man, man the tool user).

[rsch20]

the 'we can't damage the planet enough to do serious harm' attitude is completely incorrect. if we completely eradicate the ozone layer (and there are still plenty of CFC's getting pumped into the atmosphere worldwide), then we can kiss our layer of protection against the brunt of solar radiation goodbye. this planet will be about as habitable as the moon.

as far as us having the tech to fix things now, sure. but it's not going to happen without an omega point, as is said above political and societal (and market) forces will ensure that we do nothing until it is far too late. people can be smart, but as a race we wantonly disrupt ecosystems, consume and pollute, and are generally about as eco-healthy as a plague of locusts.

the complexity of our system is such that no one person can know and understand all the information we have learned, even us 'enlightened' PO folks only grasp a fraction of the problem let alone have the intelligence and knowledge to know what to do about them. and as a group we can never get enough agreement to get effective solutions implemented in a timely manner. most of the time we can't even get our points through to each other =p

damaging the planet but not eliminating life completely is possible sure, it's one of many possible futures, i contend that us wiping out life completely is another possible future, I see no reason from available evidence to refute that possibility.

we of course (as a race) will never give up technology, never said we would. we may forcibly have our toys taken away from us though. which is the focus of this entire forum =p

is an ice age that is triggered by global warming natural? only in the sense that anything (including bombs) is imo, it's another one of the 'we brought it on ourselves' scenarios.

advancement and sustainability are apples and oranges, i'm sure if we were intelligent ants (a theoretical example) we'd only do what's good for the hive and not be such rabid consumers. a race that was intelligent enough to conserve their resources from the start would have much less of a problem dealing with issues like Peak Oil than we do. we excabarate our own problems. an obvious consequence of Omega Point (to me) would be an immediate switch to sustainable technologies and damage control for eco-systems. we would be smart enough to know how stupid we are being now.

look at the movie I. Robot (which sucks other than for this object lesson), in that movie, the computer is actually correct in trying to dominate mankind for their own protection. from my point of view the ending is an unhappy ending. they defeat the computer system and stop the coup, allowing the damaging activities of man to continue. the computer specifically says it is just trying to help us! but we are so protective of our 'freedom' that we revolt. and everyone thinks that's the good ending!

[Omnitir]

I always thought that I, Robot would have been great if after all that struggle from the protagonists to stop the “evil” robots from taking over, they lost and the robots took control, but then with the robots in control everything becomes better and the world a utopia. Though most audiences wouldn’t feel comfortable with that kind of ending, even though it would be more true to the works of Azimov.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')if we completely eradicate the ozone layer (and there are still plenty of CFC's getting pumped into the atmosphere worldwide), then we can kiss our layer of protection against the brunt of solar radiation goodbye. this planet will be about as habitable as the moon.

[Ludi]

By "empty boosterism" I mean being excited about technologies that are unlikely to help us in a meaningful way any time soon, while at the same time not being excited about and not promoting or using existing helpful technologies. I'm excited about permaculture, so I'm definitely a permaculture booster, but I put my money and time where my mouth is. I'm actively implementing permaculture techniques in my own life, spending a few hours at this each day.

You get a pass, Omnitir, because you're young and a student, so you really can't be expected to make big changes to your way of life when you're already experiencing the big changes of this phase of life. But older folks with a job and maybe a house, who sit around talking about how great some esoteric technology is, without in any way making changes to their own lives, but simply waiting for some other people to pull a rabbit out of a hat, those people I see as practicing "empty boosterism."

Waiting around for a technofix to solve our problems is to me virtually the same as waiting around for Jesus to reappear and solve our problems. One saviour has been replaced by another, but it's still a passive waiting for salvation.

[rsch20]

Omnitir doesn't need a pass, he's a hell of a lot closer to being correct than you are.

permaculture is great, but what solutions does it offer for fixing the problems we already have? none, it's all about switching to renewable and eco-friendly methods. If the entire planet did that we'd still be facing major environmental problems down the road from the damage thats already been done. it's a necessary part of the solution, not the solution. Not only that, but I'm extremely skeptical of getting our current societal model to even consider it. Even after oil becomes scarce what do you think the odds are of getting even a significant fraction of the worlds population to switch to permaculture? not very good in my opinion, and even if you got say 50%, would that be enough to mitigate continuing damage from the other 50%? unlikely.

Omega Point is comparable to the Second Coming of Christ in only one way, in that they would both be 'salvations' for the human race, you are right on that.

ways that they differ:

Omega Point is science, not religion, it's entirely logical while religion rarely is, it withstands debate, another weak point for religion.

Omega Point has a specific timeline, people have been waiting for Christ for two thousand years, if Omega Point doesnt happen within the next 40 years then we can safely assume it's not coming, not only that but there should be signals of it long before then, computers that equal the processing power of the human brain is one of them and it is due shortly.

theres nothing you can do to help bring about the Second Coming, there are many things you can do to help bring about Omega Point. from most useful to least:

1. AI Programming
2. All other Science and Research
3. Industry and Production (food, tools, etc, you are helping to support the scientists, if you are producing non-essential items like tourist junk move yourself down to number 4)
4. All other professions, Lawyers, Politicians, Entertainers, Sports Figures, any 'paper pusher' job, homemakers, and even self-sufficiency folks unless they are a scientist themselves and continuing work at home =p

strangely enough the least useful group of people contains many of the highest paid, go figure.

I'm in group 3, definetly not as high on the scale of usefulness as I'd like to be, but I am a middling programmer at best and am only good at math up to algebra, anything beyond that gets very confusing to me (and I've tried), so I gave up on getting myself into group 1. encouraging others to think about this is my consolation prize.

which group are you in?