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Peak Curiosity

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Peak Curiosity

Unread postby Aaron » Thu 29 Dec 2005, 11:05:25

Well if I was Mike Lynch I'd be pissed, since this is essentially the same argument he makes...

"Peak Oil is too complex to predict with any certainty."

Dr. Smil does make a very reasonable sounding argument... although in a typically arrogant way for career academics like him.

Let the critique begin...

(Oh yes - And it's pretty smug derision coming from a guy who sees nothing wrong with making up words to suit the purposes of this contrived drivel)

Peak Curiosity

By Vaclav Smil Published 12/02/2005

Predicting the end of oil era has been a venerable (albeit fruitless) pseudo-intellectual pursuit for most of the 20th century. This Nostradamian pastime regained new vigor during the late 1990s when (mostly retired geologists) Colin Campbell, Jean Laherrère, L.F. Ivanhoe, Richard Duncan and Kenneth Deffeyes -- and their groupies gathered under the WWW umbrellas of peakoil.net, peakoil.com, peakoil.org and hubbertpeak.com --- flooded the media with
catastrophist tales of imminent peak of the global oil production to be
followed by a precipitous decline of oil availability resulting in the demise
of modern civilization.

As self-appointed prophets are want to do, these
wholesalers of fear have not been cautious when outlining the
consequences. In Ivanhoe's rendering "the inevitable doomsday" will be
followed by "economic implosion" that will make "many of the world's
developed societies look more like today's Russia than the US." In
Duncan's telling there is massive unemployment, breadlines, widespread
homelessness and a catastrophic end of industrial civilization.
Kenneth Deffeyes, an experienced petroleum geologist and a former
professor at Princeton University, has been the most puzzling member of
the peak oil cult. As a scientist he must know that the real world is
permeated by uncertainties, that complex realities should not be reduced
to simplistic slogans aimed to gain media attention, and that (as even a
brief retrospective will demonstrate) making precise point predictions is a
futile endeavor.

Yet he set all of this aside and proceeded to write about
the peak of global oil production in a way that leaves no room for any
doubt ("no initiative put in place starting today can have a substantial
effect on the peak production year"), that portrays the world's energy use
merely as a matter of supply (utterly ignoring demand) and, most
incredibly, he went farther than any of his confrères by predicting not just
the year but the very day when the world's oil output was to peak.

On January 14, 2004 he wrote (albeit admitting that "it is a bit silly") that
"we can now pick a day to celebrate passing the top of the
mathematically smooth Hubbert curve: Nov 24, 2005. It falls right
smack dab on top of Thanksgiving Day 2005. It sounds a little sick
to observe a gloomy day, but in San Francisco they still observe
April 18 as the anniversary of the 1906 earthquake."

On June 5, 2004 he confirmed that "I'm still standing by my prediction that
the smoothed world production curve will peak on Thanksgiving Day,
2005." The day came and went -- so what is the verdict? In the strictest
sense Deffeyes's proposition is not provable by consulting any statistics:
oil producing countries do not report their extraction on a daily basis. And even if it worked in terms of a mathematically smooth curve we would
have to wait for many months to complete such a derivation.
But there is no need for waiting.

Amidst the ocean of uncertainties
concerning the future of global oil production there are (as Rumsfeld,
correctly, would have it) two great known unknowns: we do not know with
any satisfactory confidence the ultimate amount of oil that we will be able
to extract from the Earth's crust; and we do not know the eventual extent
of market reaction to substantial price shifts (a plain way of saying that
the elasticity of crude oil's consumption is an elusive variable). And
because we do not know either the eventual maximum of potential
(resource-limited) extraction or the actual level of (market-driven)
production we cannot know with any readily quantifiable certainty the year
(forget the day) when the global oil output will peak.

As far as resources go, peak-of-oil catastrophists believe that there is
virtually nothing left to be discovered while both the theoretical
understanding of sedimentary basin geology and the fact that large parts
of the crust (including some regions in the Middle East, most of West
Africa and huge chunks of Siberia) have yet to be explored with intensity
comparable to that of the North American drilling point to further
substantial discoveries. Acting on this, both national and multinational oil
companies are now engaged in extensive drilling aimed at adding millions
of barrels of new capacity in the coming years.

As for the market reaction, the response, eventually, does come. After
OPEC nearly quintupled its oil price in 1973 the global oil consumption
declined by merely 1.5% in 1974 and by 1976 it was nearly 4% above the
1973 level. Oil use may have been inelastic to the initial quintupling but it
surely responded to an additional near-trebling that took place between
1978 and 1981: by 1983 the world's oil consumption fell by 11%.
The same forces have been at work recently.

The day before the
Thanksgiving the price per barrel went down by 50 cents, during the
preceding month it declined by about 8% and since August it fell by about
17%; it fell again the day after Thanksgiving when it stood, in
inflation-adjusted terms, more than 20% below the historic high reached
in the spring of 1981. None of this indicates a market spooked by the
prospect of global extraction never surpassing the Thanksgiving rate!
Headlines and attention grabbing have been always about new bad
news, about caricaturing complexities and about reducing the message to
the lowest understandable denominator. But scientists should leave this
"information" niche to the National Enquirer or to Dr. Phil.

Undoubtedly, there is a finite amount of oil in the Earth's crust, but even if
we were to know it to the last drop we could not predict how much of it we
will eventually extract (much of it will be simply too expensive to get out,
or too unappealing compared to other choices). Undoubtedly, there is
continuing (and relatively slowly increasing) oil demand in affluent
economies and there is rising demand in China and India, but we do not
know how fast the global use will grow and at what levels it will start
eventually leveling off because that rate is determined not only by the
volume of recoverable oil but also by the fuel's price and by the
cleverness and rapidity of our technical advances.

Inevitably, sometime in
the future global extraction of liquid oil will start declining but we will not
be able to pinpoint that event and it may not be of much interest anyway.
The story of the modern world is, most fundamentally, one of continuous
energy transitions as the leading fuel changed from wood to coal and
then from coal to oil. But oil never dominated as much as coal did
because of the concurrent diversification into natural gas and into hydro
and nuclear electricity. These, and other sources, await further
exploitation: there is no reason to believe that we cannot eventually move
past the oil era. Difficulties of this transition should not be discounted but
they will be the best stimulants of our inventiveness and of our ability to
cope with new challenges.

Vaclav Smil is in the Faculty of Environment at the University of
Manitoba, Canada. His latest book is Creating the 20th Century; his latest
energy book is Energy at the Crossroads: Global Perspectives and
Uncertainties. A wide-ranging examination of the peak oil phenomenon
will appear in Peak Oil Forum (Aleklett, Cavaney, Flavin, Kaufman, Smil)
in January-February issue of World Watch.

If you are a producer or reporter who is interested in receiving more
information about this article or the author, please email your request to
interview@techcentralstation.com.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby holmes » Thu 29 Dec 2005, 12:10:47

exactly sounds reasonable pampered and spoiled. None of these dolts even acknowledge thew destruction and corruption associated with giving them tenure and a phat pad. as long as they are fed the junk. Oil is getting sucked dry. I disagree with his jerk statement that vast areas have not been explored. after reading that part I stopped. pure BS.
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Thu 29 Dec 2005, 13:12:17

I'll take a shot:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')redicting the end of oil era has been a venerable (albeit fruitless) pseudo-intellectual pursuit for most of the 20th century.


I've always been interested in what separates an intellectual and a pseudo-intellectual. Claiming someone is "pseudo-intellectual" seems to be akin to saying that the accused just don't know what they're talking about. Except, not in so many words, which in turn makes me wonder why someone who thinks another is a "pseudo-intellectual" doesn't just point out the (presumably obvious) flaws in the pseudo-arguments made by the "pseudo-intellectual." Maybe it's really just a way of expressing that you don't like someone else's point...which might itself qualify as pseudo-intellectualizing.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his Nostradamian pastime regained new vigor during the late 1990s when (mostly retired geologists) Colin Campbell, Jean Laherrère, L.F. Ivanhoe, Richard Duncan and Kenneth Deffeyes -- and their groupies gathered under the WWW umbrellas of peakoil.net, peakoil.com, peakoil.org and hubbertpeak.com --- flooded the media with
catastrophist tales of imminent peak of the global oil production to be
followed by a precipitous decline of oil availability resulting in the demise
of modern civilization.


1) Did they actually do the supposed flooding?
2) How many peak oil stories were there when compared to stories about, say, Natalie Holloway or Terri Schiavo?
3) Even the most absolutely doomeristic peaknik (i.e. Mike Ruppert) doesn't think things are going to go really south until 2008. So the ridicule is a little premature.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s self-appointed prophets are want to do, these
wholesalers of fear have not been cautious when outlining the
consequences. In Ivanhoe's rendering "the inevitable doomsday" will be
followed by "economic implosion" that will make "many of the world's
developed societies look more like today's Russia than the US." In
Duncan's telling there is massive unemployment, breadlines, widespread
homelessness and a catastrophic end of industrial civilization.


Again, this all remains to be seen. However, I fail to see how this wouldn't be a reasonable extrapolation assuming the premises of the peak oil argument are true.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'K')enneth Deffeyes, an experienced petroleum geologist and a former
professor at Princeton University, has been the most puzzling member of
the peak oil cult. As a scientist he must know that the real world is
permeated by uncertainties, that complex realities should not be reduced
to simplistic slogans aimed to gain media attention, and that (as even a
brief retrospective will demonstrate) making precise point predictions is a
futile endeavor.


The world is indeed complex. But this is a red herring. Certain aspects of the world, and of human experience, are entirely predictable. The inevitability of death, for instance, tends to ignore the notion that biology is very complex. Furthermore, that most people have a life expectancy defined by a pretty inelastic upper range also defies that very same biological complexity.

Or, to take a different example: the quantum occurences on a billiards table during a simple game of pool are so complex as to defy description even if we used all the computing power currently available to the human species. But in general, we can describe the reactions of the balls on the table by knowing only a few things in advance; Newtonian mechanics provides a good and useful summary for what's really going on.

Similarly, though many things affect oil extraction, in the grand scheme of things, the forces that might expand our capacity to get oil balance those that would diminish it in such a way that the trajectory can be described with a fair degree of certainty. We may not know the day that oil does peak or has peaked. But we are justified in expecting a fairly near-term peak.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')et he set all of this aside and proceeded to write about
the peak of global oil production in a way that leaves no room for any
doubt ("no initiative put in place starting today can have a substantial
effect on the peak production year"), that portrays the world's energy use
merely as a matter of supply (utterly ignoring demand) and, most
incredibly, he went farther than any of his confrères by predicting not just
the year but the very day when the world's oil output was to peak.


The very first post I made on these boards had to do with the analogy between oil and food. A lot of optimists talk about demand for oil as fairly elastic. But in reality, demand for oil is very much like demand for food. Most people in the west could do with a little less food every day. But supplies could not be drastically reduced without killing people. Of course, so long as you ignore this, then it's possible to say that demand for food is elastic. So long as our economy depends on oil (as it does) then demand is not elastic unless you kill the economy. And what happens when you kill the economy?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n June 5, 2004 he confirmed that "I'm still standing by my prediction that
the smoothed world production curve will peak on Thanksgiving Day,
2005." The day came and went -- so what is the verdict? In the strictest
sense Deffeyes's proposition is not provable by consulting any statistics:
oil producing countries do not report their extraction on a daily basis. And even if it worked in terms of a mathematically smooth curve we would
have to wait for many months to complete such a derivation.
But there is no need for waiting.


The implication here is that by showing that Deffeyes can't know for sure that oil peaked on Thanksgiving day (as he can't), the entire peak oil argument is destroyed. I'm afraid this is just not the case.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'w')e do not know with
any satisfactory confidence the ultimate amount of oil that we will be able
to extract from the Earth's crust; and we do not know the eventual extent
of market reaction to substantial price shifts (a plain way of saying that
the elasticity of crude oil's consumption is an elusive variable).


Of course, we don't know either. But we can make some pretty good guesses. By drawing attention to the fact that they are guesses, Smil avoids dealing with the (very good) reasons we are inclined to guess as we do. We make guesses at what the effects of a given disease will mean for a person who has it. A doctor observing massive inoperable malignant tumors in a person's body guesses that the cancer is terminal. They're not always right, but it's not a criticism of the method of arriving at a prognosis to say that it's only a guess.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s far as resources go, peak-of-oil catastrophists believe that there is
virtually nothing left to be discovered while both the theoretical
understanding of sedimentary basin geology and the fact that large parts
of the crust (including some regions in the Middle East, most of West
Africa and huge chunks of Siberia) have yet to be explored with intensity
comparable to that of the North American drilling point to further
substantial discoveries. Acting on this, both national and multinational oil
companies are now engaged in extensive drilling aimed at adding millions
of barrels of new capacity in the coming years.


1) Again, he's avoiding dealing with the reasons why oil geologists don't find those regions very promising by simply saying that they haven't been explored. Of course, they have been explored to a degree, and there are very good reasons to believe that they don't contain a whole lot of oil. Our guess about the lack of oil in those regions may be wrong, but it's not something that anyone decided by convention. There are good reasons we made that guess.
2) Of course, any program of exploration is "aimed" at adding millions of barrels of new capacity. This is not the same as saying that those millions of barrels will be added.
3) It seems odd that he spends so much time working Deffeyes over (he could have made his point in a sentence or two), and then fails to give specifics about the exploration programs in question. The oil majors don't seem to be reporting any huge pushes into those areas that aren't already accounted for in the models of the very geologists he tries to debunk here.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s for the market reaction, the response, eventually, does come. After
OPEC nearly quintupled its oil price in 1973 the global oil consumption
declined by merely 1.5% in 1974 and by 1976 it was nearly 4% above the
1973 level. Oil use may have been inelastic to the initial quintupling but it
surely responded to an additional near-trebling that took place between
1978 and 1981: by 1983 the world's oil consumption fell by 11%.

Note that the decrease in consumption is completely disproportionate to the increase in price. After prices increased 1200%, we managed to reduce consumption by 11% in the face of huge increases in efficiency, and that only temporarily. Whose side does that argue for?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he day before the
Thanksgiving the price per barrel went down by 50 cents, during the
preceding month it declined by about 8% and since August it fell by about
17%; it fell again the day after Thanksgiving when it stood, in
inflation-adjusted terms, more than 20% below the historic high reached
in the spring of 1981. None of this indicates a market spooked by the
prospect of global extraction never surpassing the Thanksgiving rate!

Red Herring. What does the market have to do with it? The market is driven by what it knows, not what is.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he story of the modern world is, most fundamentally, one of continuous
energy transitions as the leading fuel changed from wood to coal and
then from coal to oil.

1) This simplification from the same guy who was just extolling the vagaries of the complex. But I admit this is a cheap shot.
2) Yet again, he's avoiding having to grapple with the point: it's not clear what we're going to transition to. But what is clear is that had we not been able to make those other transitions, we'd have been well and truly screwed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut oil never dominated as much as coal did
because of the concurrent diversification into natural gas and into hydro
and nuclear electricity.

He seems to subtly equate energy production with electricity production. They're not equivalent; but getting someone to accept that they are reduces the impact of the peak oil argument. Which is, of course, why he makes this subtle shift. He wants to avoid dealing with the issues of transportation, distribution of goods, construction, and infrastructure--which are the main areas of peak oil impact. Does anyone doubt that, if there were a catastrophic failure in even one of those areas, we'd be in serious trouble?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hese, and other sources, await further
exploitation: there is no reason to believe that we cannot eventually move
past the oil era. Difficulties of this transition should not be discounted but
they will be the best stimulants of our inventiveness and of our ability to
cope with new challenges.

Read the chapter called "Necessity's Mother" in "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jarred Diamond for a thorough debunking of the notion that, when it's needed, we'll figure out the solution. There are plenty of problems that, despite our technical acumen, remain unsolved even today. We do not know how to cheat death, cure cancer, avoid war, stop global warming, or divert hurricanes. The notion that history produces the man for the hour is an illusion. It appears to us that way because we remain in existence, but there was nothing necessary about any of it. Consider this analogy:

A couple goes to the mall and they stop at a map kiosk. There's a little label pointing to a spot on the map that says "You are here." They look over the map and, indeed, they realize that this is correct. That little label shows where they are. How, they wonder in awe, did the people who made the map know that they'd be right there?

The flaw is obvious--they have to be right there to observe that map. Similarly, it can be said that various innovators have arrived from time to time with inventions that helped us overcome certain challenges. But we only see it that way after the fact. We weren't forced into learning to make fire and nature didn't provide some kind of prehistoric genius to show us how--someone happened to learn it, and we made use of that learning. We weren't forced to develop writing, but once we did, we found it to be immensely useful. We weren't forced to develop steam power, but once we did, we found all kinds of applications.

I find it particularly odd that peak oil optimists disparrage, on the one hand, predictions of a near term peak, while on the other they boldly predict the arrival of a few geniuses that will work everything out when the time comes.
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby bobcousins » Thu 29 Dec 2005, 21:49:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Smil', 'T')he story of the modern world is, most fundamentally, one of continuous
energy transitions as the leading fuel changed from wood to coal and
then from coal to oil. But oil never dominated as much as coal did
because of the concurrent diversification into natural gas and into hydro
and nuclear electricity. These, and other sources, await further
exploitation: there is no reason to believe that we cannot eventually move
past the oil era. Difficulties of this transition should not be discounted but
they will be the best stimulants of our inventiveness and of our ability to
cope with new challenges.


It would be nice if he had something new to say, but he trots out the usual unsupported arguments cornucopians come up with. His first point about transition, is I think factually wrong. We burn as much coal as we ever did and also as much wood. Probably cheap oil subsidises all other energy sources. Hydro is obviously limited. The transition to nuclear stalled due to to some significant reasons which aren't about to go away.

The second point he makes is that adversity finds alternative solutions, but omits the important caveat if they exist. Past invention does not guarantee future invention. So its down to a matter of faith.

This and his view that some things are just so complicated its best not to worry about them, make me think he is not much of a scientist. He devotes time to Deffeyes' Thanksgiving date but this is just trivia. Perhaps his book has a more sophisticated analysis, but if that article correctly summarises his argument it is pretty poor.
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Thu 29 Dec 2005, 22:04:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e burn as much coal as we ever did and also as much wood.


Excellent point. I'd never have thought of that.
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby Cerryl » Fri 30 Dec 2005, 00:54:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e burn as much coal as we ever did


It's actually worse than that. The US consumption of coal has contimued to increase throughout the 20th century. Reference this handy graph, courtesy of the EIA http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec7_4.pdf

Our total consumption of coal has doubled over the last fifty years. There was no slowdown in growth even as we continued to export manufacturing overseas. So much for the transition away from coal. So much for the "decarbonizing" of our energy sources that Michael Chricton blabbed about in a recent speach (see this topic http://www.peakoil.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=16002
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby Aaron » Fri 30 Dec 2005, 09:10:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')e devotes time to Deffeyes' Thanksgiving date but this is just trivia.


Those who actually read Deffey's know he says there is uncertainty in predicting a date, and that we should treat peak as if it was on Thanksgiving 05...

Regardless of the specific date.

Deffey's most significant observation goes unnoticed, (even among peakers).

The actual peak date is not nearly as important as the date by which we should have begun preparing to prevent the worst consequences of peak.

Since the lead times are very large he is saying that the race against peak is a sprint... not a marathon, at this point.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby aahala » Fri 30 Dec 2005, 12:48:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Smil', 'T')he story of the modern world is, most fundamentally, one of continuous
energy transitions as the leading fuel changed from wood to coal and
then from coal to oil. But oil never dominated as much as coal did
because of the concurrent diversification into natural gas and into hydro
and nuclear electricity. These, and other sources, await further
exploitation: there is no reason to believe that we cannot eventually move
past the oil era. Difficulties of this transition should not be discounted but
they will be the best stimulants of our inventiveness and of our ability to
cope with new challenges.


It would be nice if he had something new to say, but he trots out the usual unsupported arguments cornucopians come up with. His first point about transition, is I think factually wrong. We burn as much coal as we ever did and also as much wood.


bob, I agree with much of your post, but I don't interpret the
smil quote as you did. I think he is talking about the relative position
of wood versus coal versus oil over time. If my reading is correct, then
I believe his statement is factually correct. Coal at one time had a more
dominant position than oil has now, but oil is now the dominant power source.

I don't think the quote claims anything about absolute coal useage, but rather it's relative decline to total primary energy.
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby kevincarter » Fri 30 Dec 2005, 12:50:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')the future global extraction of liquid oil will start declining but we will not be able to pinpoint that event and it may not be of much interest anyway.


yeah... I'm sure that paying more than what you can for gas won't be of much interest...
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby gbruno » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 01:26:28

Smil's books are well worth reading, he has a huge reserve of personal energy.
He has, however, a personal position against PeakOil. His chapter "Against Forecasting" is terrific.
Just regard him as a resource full of useful stats, and accept that he is from the old school, he wont get on board the peak train for a while yet.

Maybe we could draw a distinction between Projection and Prediction. For a complex system like the world economy, we can make projections like:
Current trends indicate an oil scarcity. Current trends, if continued, will result in a crash, unless something intervenes. Something always intervenes. Sometimes its a dark age.

You cant predict accurately, but you can project ie point out that current trends cannot continue long.
the 1970's "Club of Rome" viewed as predictions were wrong, but viewed as projections were useful.
One major defect of the Club of Rome 1970's projections were that they put "pollution" into one category and projected death and decay. However "pollution" was too broad a term to use as a single projection.
Ironically we now do have a single "pollution" point, which does lead to death and decay: CO2 greenhouse gas. so the projection is closer to a prediction.
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 04:19:29

Wow, what a convincing arguement. Hes' won me over.

"Um Ee Oo Ah, we still use lots of coal and gas, and thats' goooood.
These things are SO complex we can't possibly know how its' going to play excactly, so THAT means theres' no problem! Plus didn't you hear, we still burn lots of coal and gas!"
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby Doly » Tue 13 Jun 2006, 08:46:53

I wonder since when "I don't know when it's going to happen." means "It's never going to happen."

There should be a name for that logical fallacy.
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby entropyfails » Wed 14 Jun 2006, 00:34:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'I') wonder since when "I don't know when it's going to happen." means "It's never going to happen."

There should be a name for that logical fallacy.


This sort of logicical error goes by the handle of the hangman paradox. Or
The Unexpected Hanging

or
unexpected hanging paradox

Some people just want to believe. *grin*
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 15 Jun 2006, 11:08:44

There's no need to critique him beyond his use of ad hominems ("pseudo intellectuals").
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Re: Peak Curiosity

Unread postby lateStarter » Thu 15 Jun 2006, 13:43:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')cting on this, both national and multinational oil
companies are now engaged in extensive drilling aimed at adding millions of barrels of new capacity in the coming years.


Wow! Millions of barrels! That would only sound reassuring to someone whose only interest in the topic, is the price at the pump.
We have been brought into the present condition in which we are unable neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them. - Livy
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Posts: 1058
Joined: Wed 06 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: 38 km west of Warsaw, Poland
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