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Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

Unread postby o2ny » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 17:46:42

Just saw this on msnbc:

Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

No mention of PO but instead dismissing high oil prices as purely demand driven when compared to supply shocks of 70's and 80's:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he biggest difference now, economists say, is that this surge in oil prices is driven by soaring demand for oil, not a sudden cutoff in supplies as occurred with the previous oil shocks.


What they seem to be getting at with all this is that drops in supply are not even a factor right now- ie. supply is going down slow enough that we won't see a 'shock'. Of course this ignores all the recent jitters directly following hurricanes, refinery explosions, etc. which would have been easily absorbed in a world of abundant supply.

This trend of the mainstream media being overly optimistic when it comes to the price of oil is getting troublesome (the above article is from the AP). Glossing over the idea that supply is even an issue just seems like irresponsible journalism. Kind of reminds me of the early days of the Iraq war when the Bush administration could do no wrong in the media's eyes. Even the fact that they are calling this a 'spike' implies that price of oil will shortly drop back to 'stabile' levels before this recent run-up began.
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Re: Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 17:57:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('o2ny', 'J')ust saw this on msnbc:

Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

No mention of PO but instead dismissing high oil prices as purely demand driven when compared to supply shocks of 70's and 80's:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he biggest difference now, economists say, is that this surge in oil prices is driven by soaring demand for oil, not a sudden cutoff in supplies as occurred with the previous oil shocks.


What they seem to be getting at with all this is that drops in supply are not even a factor right now- ie. supply is going down slow enough that we won't see a 'shock'. Of course this ignores all the recent jitters directly following hurricanes, refinery explosions, etc. which would have been easily absorbed in a world of abundant supply.

This trend of the mainstream media being overly optimistic when it comes to the price of oil is getting troublesome (the above article is from the AP). Glossing over the idea that supply is even an issue just seems like irresponsible journalism. Kind of reminds me of the early days of the Iraq war when the Bush administration could do no wrong in the media's eyes. Even the fact that they are calling this a 'spike' implies that price of oil will shortly drop back to 'stabile' levels before this recent run-up began.


Why am I not surprised? The media takes a seemingly imminent problem like PO, ignores it, spins the actual problem into a good thing - 'economic growth pressures cause insatiable demand' and then goes back to nonstop coverage of the Natalee Holloway case. Nobody wants to hear that their way of life is doomed, or even that it's in jeopardy. Sad, really. :cry:
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Re: Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

Unread postby MicroHydro » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 19:32:54

1% decline a year won't rock the world, but wait until we get into 8-10% annual declines by the end of the decade. Then people will be singing a different tune.
"The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
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Re: Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

Unread postby dukey » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 20:46:27

if the media turned round and went
peak oil is near and the economy will get absolutely and utterly fucked

all hell would break loose
what would investors do if they actually .. realised this ?
etc etc .. ;p

as far as i an concerned its count down to melt down
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Re: Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

Unread postby o2ny » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 21:34:14

This brings up the question of how aware currently are professional investors about the PO crises (or the media for that matter)? Obviously people who read this board are factoring PO into their investment choices in a big way. But if the investment community at large is generally unaware of and/or chooses not to believe in PO, then we'd have to think this recent run up in oil was caused purely by current market forces and not really by any speculation on PO getting priced in. Which would be kind of scary.

I met a guy at a party a few weeks ago who said he was some kind of commodities broker- I asked him what he thought about the price of oil. He basically gave me a non-answer like 'I don't deal in oil futures' which led me to believe he hadn't even thought about it or heard about it. IMO PO is the event of our lifetimes and this guy- who's virtually in the eye of the storm- has no opinion. Is this the norm? what is the consensus among the 'pro' investors.
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Re: Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 21:57:38

In addition to some good commnets above, there are some financial and fundemental reasons why the energy price shockwave hasn't affected the economy much - that is within the US:

Economy Outruns Energy Price Shockwave in Second Quarter

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ositive comments about the second quarter GDP in the press show that the financial industry still misunderstands the effect and implications of the energy price shockwave.

While the efforts of the US consumer to get ahead of the encroaching energy shockwave have been valiant, they will not be able to keep outrunning it much longer.

Only by a combination of raiding consumers' savings and an increase in national borrowing (through the current account deficit), did the US achieve an economic gain in the second quarter. The personal savings rate plunged to a microscopic 0.2% from a revised average of 1.8% in 2004. The drop in the savings rate accounts for the sluggish M2 money supply growth, which has been growing only about 2.5% over the last six months. Inflation adjusted money supply, now negative, is considered a reliable leading indicator of economic activity by the Conference Board.


In addition, there were physical shortages in the early 70s, so far, there have been no (meaningful) outright shortages of energy products. No matter what the Fed does to increase the supply of money, or how many tax cuts for energy one gets, the government can not increase the supply of energy. An outright shortage would immeadiately and directly affect the economy.
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Re: Oil Spike Won't Cause Oil Shocks of Past

Unread postby Lehyina » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 06:50:13

From the msnbc article:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')People forget that energy just isn't as big relative to the economy as it was 25 years ago," he said, referring to the conservation that has occurred to cut energy usage by both consumers and businesses.

It is amazing how ignorant statements like this continue to get passed around as if they are fact. Seems I can't post my own charts here but if I could I would show you that the USA's real GDP since 1965 to 2004 has a very high 0.9866 correlation coefficient with the three fossil fuel components of total primary energy consumption (i.e. coal, natural gas and oil). If coal and natural gas are left out, the correlation coefficient for just oil on its own is a poor 0.6267.
What this means is that the economy is just as dependent on TOTAL ENERGY consumption as it has ever been. It appears less dependent on oil alone because of fuel substitution measures taken after the 1973 and 1980 oil price shocks - especially substitution of oil fired power generation by natural gas fired power generation. But oil's primary function in the economy now is for transportation and it is going to be much harder this time around to lessen the oil price shock by fuel substitution (eg no more cheap natural gas available). Of all the measures available serious conservation and price driven demand destruction will have the most impact.
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