[joe1347]

Possibly this is a naive question since I am still new to this area - but doesn't the debate regarding shale oil boil down (so to speak) to the ability to cost effectively produce a "transporation" fuel? Is it possible to instead treat shale oil similarly to coal and just burn it near the mine to directly produce electricity? Possibly this eliminates the economics issues associated with producing transportation fuel but the shale oil still provides "usefull" energy. Or am I way off base and you can't burn rocks even if they have some oil in them?

[go5star]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joe1347', 'P')ossibly this is a naive question since I am still new to this area - but doesn't the debate regarding shale oil boil down (so to speak) to the ability to cost effectively produce a "transporation" fuel? Is it possible to instead treat shale oil similarly to coal and just burn it near the mine to directly produce electricity? Possibly this eliminates the economics issues associated with producing transportation fuel but the shale oil still provides "usefull" energy. Or am I way off base and you can't burn rocks even if they have some oil in them?

[sicophiliac]

Go5star

A couple of questions

Forgive my ignorance but you say you use coal gasification instead of burning coal to produce the heat needed to extract the oil from the shale rock. How do you get the energy to gasify the coal ? Does that not require burning coal to gasify other coal so you can use it for the oil shale conversion and perhaps later converting to liquid fuels. Maybe I just dont understand the whole process.

Also if your in the experimental stages of this right now when do you plan to have commercially viable production plants going ? How many and what target dates. By the way you guys wouldnt happen to be hiring anybody right now to run these plants would you?

[go5star]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sicophiliac', 'G')o5star

A couple of questions

Forgive my ignorance but you say you use coal gasification instead of burning coal to produce the heat needed to extract the oil from the shale rock. How do you get the energy to gasify the coal ? Does that not require burning coal to gasify other coal so you can use it for the oil shale conversion and perhaps later converting to liquid fuels. Maybe I just dont understand the whole process.

Also if your in the experimental stages of this right now when do you plan to have commercially viable production plants going ? How many and what target dates. By the way you guys wouldnt happen to be hiring anybody right now to run these plants would you?

[wildsparrow]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('go5star', '
') I take it from the "economy/capitalism/consumerism...must die" comment that you are a Pol Pot anarchist that believes the human race should all revert back to an agrarian society?

[go5star]

http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/ ... e_WWW.html

http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/ ... y_WWW.html

Here we go boys & girls, hope you all are ready. The next rush is on.

[go5star]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', ':')!:

Here's the most important part from that Rand study :

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')urrently, no organization with the management,
technical, and financial wherewithal to develop oil shale resources has announced its
intent to build commercial-scale production facilities. A firm decision to commit
funds to such a venture is at least six years away because that is the minimum length
of time for scale-up and process confirmation work needed to obtain the technical
Summary xi
and environmental data required for the design and permitting of a first-of-a-kind
commercial operation. At least an additional six to eight years will be required to
permit, design, construct, shake down, and confirm performance of that initial commercial
operation. Consequently, at least 12 and possibly more years will elapse
before oil shale development will reach the production growth phase. Under high
growth assumptions, an oil shale production level of 1 million barrels per day is
probably more than 20 years in the future, and 3 million barrels per day is probably
more than 30 years into the future.

[sicophiliac]

Go5star thanks for the links, they helped explain the process quite a bit. I guess I was more or less under estimating the potential of the technology. Looks pretty good efficiency wise considering a small amount of coal or energy is needed to set off the gasification process which produces the syngas which then too can be burned to exploit more energy. You guys just figured out a clever way to simply use that thermal energy to extract oil shale while you were at it. The website stated that the costs for this type of technology would be a bit higher then your standard coal plant but I think the versitility and efficiency of it would more then offset that in the long term. I mean it could be an all in one energy production facility... producing electricity.. liquid fuels from the syngas and or just the oil from the oil shale. Consolidation potential like that would hint that over all costs of production could easily be very low once all the bugs get worked out. I guess for all intents and purposes the EROEI factor would simply be the energy envolved in mining the coal,shale and powering the plant VS the energy the plant produces in various forms. Id assume the ratio would be pretty good since coal seems to be so cheap and readily available as an energy source already.. not factoring in the maximum efficiency benifits of utalizing it through the gasification process. I certianly hope the best for your company and your investment venture in this area.

[go5star]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', 'T')his seems to be a recurring theme with shale oil. First it was, it'll be viable when oil is $8 a barrel, and then $20 a barrlel, then $ 40 a barrel. This argument is getting real old, and it's because people are too stupid to understand the concepts of thermodynamics (entropy especially).

[go5star]

Wrong again, Mr. Authority PStarr. Haven't asked for a dime from anyone on this forum. Period.

I find it convenient that you didn't answer a single question that I posed to you, instead your only defense is you think I should be paying for advertising.

What exactly am I selling PStar? What exactly are you selling other than FUD? You have yet to try and dispute any portion of our process but yet you rely on others to spout your authority. Those others rely on facts and figures from the 70's and 80's. Did you read the Rand report? Did you read the last Rand report from 1980 done for the Office of Technology Assessment?

I thought you said WalMart doesn't target your demographic but a DVD in the bargain bin would have been my first guess for your purchase at WalMart.

[Graeme]

Technology shows promise in extracting oil from shale economically

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')hale reserves, estimated at more than two trillion barrels in the U.S., are a potential source of oil that now may be economically unlocked thanks to technology developed by Raytheon Company and its partner, CF Technologies.

Raytheon's Integrated Defense Systems (IDS) business' radio frequency (RF) energy combined with critical fluid (CF)technology shows promise for efficiently extracting oil from shale.

Combining RF and CF technologies provides a revolutionary way for recovering oil from shale reserves worldwide, according to John Moses, president of CF Technologies. Based on laboratory results and analysis, the oil produced is a light product, comparable to kerosene that can be produced by the unique process with high extraction efficiency.

[vampyregirl]

Shale oil research is nothing new but only recently has it become economically worthwhile.
back in the 1920s Shale research was conducted in the western United States but not only was the cost of production to high but major fields discovered in Venezuela made Shale exploration unneccesary. Later in the 1970s Exxon conducted Shale research and experimentation in the same area but it was abandoned when it was determined production costs would be to high. It wouldn't be profitable.
Today that has changed. problem is with existing technology such as the in Situ method it takes time to extract. Shale oil can't be extracted fast enough in suffecient quanity to meet demand. That may change in a few years. Shale reserves are estimated at more than two trillion barrels worldwide. A huge resource. Once a breakthrough is acheived we could have an abundant supply.
That being said i disagree with analysts who say oil prices will drop to 1990s levels. Production costs are higher with nonconventional oil therefore we will never see the prices go down.

[zoidberg]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vampyregirl', 'S')hale oil research is nothing new but only recently has it become economically worthwhile.
back in the 1920s Shale research was conducted in the western United States but not only was the cost of production to high but major fields discovered in Venezuela made Shale exploration unneccesary. Later in the 1970s Exxon conducted Shale research and experimentation in the same area but it was abandoned when it was determined production costs would be to high. It wouldn't be profitable.
Today that has changed. problem is with existing technology such as the in Situ method it takes time to extract. Shale oil can't be extracted fast enough in suffecient quanity to meet demand. That may change in a few years. Shale reserves are estimated at more than two trillion barrels worldwide. A huge resource. Once a breakthrough is acheived we could have an abundant supply.
That being said i disagree with analysts who say oil prices will drop to 1990s levels. Production costs are higher with nonconventional oil therefore we will never see the prices go down.

[Oil-Finder]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zoidberg', '
')Ha! In situ involves freezing a section "a freeze wall" and the heating another chunk for 2-3 years to 650 to 700 degrees F.

Can you imagine the energy requirements for that, even supposing the EROI is positive? The upfront energy costs are huge. How feasible is it to divert that much electrical energy to the extraction process for that long? I dont know how large the area to make it economically feasible is, but I'm guessing its huge. Secondly wheres the nuke plant(plants) necessary being built in the area? Nowhere as far as I know. Those things take a long time to get built, therefore I say oil shale production isnt on the medium term horizon.

In conclusion while it may be economical at current electrical rates to extract oil shale, that would change dramatically when you consider what would happen to rates when the process is started or constructing nuke plants is taken into consideration.

Oil shale is nothing more than propaganda for the sheeple, a con game for energy companies looking for investors(ie suckers), and a pipe dream for American patriots.

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oil-Finder', 'A')ccording to Shell, whose shale in-situ process is farthest along among all the companies doing western shale research, they intend to use natural gas extracted from the shale to power electrical power plants used to freeze the walls.

[Blacksmith]

Having worked on oil shale, all is not as it seems. Unless you have carrier beds or fractures you will not be able to extract the gas from the shale.

[Oil-Finder]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')Why don't they just sell the natural gas ?