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Occupy Wall Street pt 3

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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Plantagenet » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 23:15:26

duplicate post
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby AgentR11 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 23:17:39

Of course, its really not up to me. So compassion, or lack thereof, isn't really for me to show or not.

To executive pay being reduced, not a chance.

They'd fire some of the min wage guys to make up the difference; and then expect double the productivity out of the now doubly paid grunts. You did note the lines at McD's when they offered those jobs at our low min wage? Corporate America *CAN* find people that will produce that kind of value at double minimum wage. Unfortunately, its not going to be the young woman who was defeated by my hamburger last week.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Plantagenet » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 23:19:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ItalyRules', 'T')his problem is easily solved. Double the miminum wage...If you want social stability, you have to pay for it one way or another. Take the easy route and pay a living wage.


Italy has no minimum wage law at all. No wonder Italy is forced to beg the rest of the EU for bailouts.....

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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Novus » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 23:19:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ItalyRules', 'T')his problem is easily solved. Double the miminum wage and provide basic healthcare.

Show a little compassion for God's sake. $500.00 a week take home pay for 40 hrs/wk and the ability to go get a prescription when you need one, is not a lot to ask.

Reduce executive pay to reasonable levels and you won't even take a hit on your profits.

If you want social stability, you have to pay for it one way or another. Take the easy route and pay a living wage.


That is not what TPTB want though. They want the working poor to live like illegal Immigrants. Six people living in one room, paid only enough for food and no more, work two jobs each with no benefits between them, and if they die to preventable disease who cares they are expendable. They see these working stiffs as "useless eaters" but they also see them as sheep who won't stand up for themselves no matter how bad they are treated. To TPTB this IS the easy way. OWS is there to show them it won't be as easy as they think.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby rangerone314 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 23:35:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', 'I')f this is all true, then a socialist/bolshevik revolution is inevitable. Capitalists and their toadies will be hanging from every lamppost.


This ain't Russia.... the Capitalists and their loyal retainers may go down, but it won't be while submitting to the hangman's noose. There will be no expectation of mercy, no reason to surrender, nor will quarter be offered by either side. A second American civil war will make Bosnia look like the height of humanitarian benevolence. Our first one was pretty horrific even by the standards of the day, and our modern civilian armaments are superior in every possible way.

I recommend to any wishful Bolsheviks... find another way. Preferably at the voting booth.

Only would take one person in the military with one nuke to end a civil war. (well, depending on the side)
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby ItalyRules » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 23:40:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lthough Italy does not have a minimum wage floor by law, individual unions and labor groups set minimum rates through binding, sectoral collective agreements that cover a high percentage of the working population.

link

Resulting in much higher wages than paid in the US.

Which is why Monte is pushing for a minimum wage, to eliminate the collective bargaining.

Just exactly the opposite of what you were implying, Plantagenet.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby AgentR11 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 23:52:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'O')nly would take one person in the military with one nuke to end a civil war. (well, depending on the side)


Think about post nuke a bit before you get so hopeful...

I hate to put it this way, but I think a nuke not only would not end the civil war, it would guarantee its continuance to the inevitable destruction of just about everything. All a nuke would do is remove what little social restraints remained on the belligerents.

Whats worse is that our military could *easily* end up split in loyalty, and both sides could end up in control of, and capable of detonating a large number of nuclear weapons; with much less social constraint against doing so than a sitting president. Remember 1st Iraq war polls? A not insignificant number of people supported the notion of using nuclear weapons against a trivial opponent like Iraq whom they really had few direct reasons to hate in the first place.

Its the worst possible result, and its probability is no where near as small as one should wish.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Plantagenet » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 01:02:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ItalyRules', 'A')lthough Italy does not have a minimum wage floor by law, individual unions and labor groups set minimum rates through binding, sectoral collective agreements that cover a high percentage of the working population.


Which means those people in Italy not covered by the union agreements don't have any mininum wage protection, because Italy doesn't have a minimum wage law.

No wonder Italy has to beg the EU for bailouts----it is so backward it doesn't even have a minimum wage law. :roll:
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Novus » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 01:17:34

You guys are nutty one person can't steal a nuke. It takes multiple launch codes and keys to arm and detonate a US built nuclear weapon. The joint cheifs of staff were terrified this might actually happen in the 1950s so they put all these safeguards in place. If a nuke ever went off it would mean a vast conspiracy within the military had taken place and it just wasn't one person.


Also the issue of split loyalty is exactly what happened happened in the first US civil war. Generals from the South all sided with Confederates and took the armies they commanded with them. The Civil war wasn't the US military fighting state militias. It was the military divided up and fighting itself and then the state militias were fighting on top of that. Such a war would be suicidal with modern weapons even if nukes were left out of it.

You have to look at more recent history to see a more likely out come. Example would be the fall of the Soviet Union where the Red Army was ordered to fire on the Russian people but refused. Or more recently Egypt or even Libya where the military basically abandoned the political leadership and let them fall to the uprising. The chances of OWS actually becoming a full scale uprising is almost zero.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby AgentR11 » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 01:25:18

I wasn't saying getting a nuke would happen; the assertion was about a what-if where one did get away.

And I agree with your assessment, we have absolutely no need for nukes to turn this nation into a burned out husk in the wake of a second civil war. That's why all sides need to avoid it, and stick with the ballot box, and accept both the victories and the losses there.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby radon » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 01:53:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'Y')ou guys are nutty one person can't steal a nuke. It takes multiple launch codes and keys to arm and detonate a US built nuclear weapon.


Wishful thinking.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Example would be the fall of the Soviet Union where the Red Army was ordered to fire on the Russian people ...


No such orders were made at that time. But this does not negate your point in general.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Serial_Worrier » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 04:52:00

I can see that there are many among the OWS crowd that want blood. They want the banksters to feel the hangman's noose pulling tight.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby dorlomin » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 05:04:14

Radiohead and Massive Attack to release a live gig on pay what you want in support of Occupy.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Sixstrings » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 05:56:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Occupy Wall Street movement and brave homeowners around the country are coming together to say, "Enough is enough." We, the 99%, are standing up to Wall Street banks and demanding they negotiate with homeowners instead of fraudulently foreclosing on them.

Occupy Our Homes is a movement that supports Americans who stand up to their banks. We believe everyone has a right to decent, affordable housing. We stand in solidarity with the Occupy Wall Street movement and with community organizations who help the 99% fight for their homes.
http://occupyourhomes.org/


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')img]http://media.mlive.com/news/detroit_impact/photo/10327288-large.jpg[/img]

Occupy Our Homes: Southgate couple ready to face arrest by ignoring eviction order

"We plan to stay here," Debbie Henry said this morning outside her home in Southgate, which she has been ordered to vacate by January 2. "We'll go to jail I guess."

Roughly 20 family members, friends and supporters joined the Henrys at a press conference organized by Occupy Our Homes, an action-oriented offshoot of the Occupy Wall Street movement that is seeking to highlight the ongoing national foreclosure crisis.

"When it looked like the whole financial system was going to collapse, it was taxpayers like the Henrys that bailed out the banks," said volunteer organizer Shannon McEvilly. "We expected they would use that taxpayer bailout to do right by homeowners. It's time the banks lived up to their promises and put our communities before their profits."

Several family members and friends -- including their pastor -- said they were willing to stand with the Henrys in an act of civil disobedience if authorities attempt to force them out of their home next month.

"They don't want a handout," said cousin Suzie Williams. "They just want fairness. They don't deserve to spend their retirement in homelessness. I don't care what Fannie Mae has to say about it. I will stay here with Debbie and Rob if the bank comes to kick them out."

The Henrys purchased their home at 13694 Helen in 2004 for around $140,000, securing a 30-year loan from Countrywide Financial. They say they had no trouble making payments until July of 2008, when Debbie had a mild stroke and was forced to retire from her job in the food service industry.

With Rob continuing to work as a mechanic, the family contacted Bank of America (which had purchased Countrywide earlier that year) and secured a trial loan modification, which allowed them to make reduced monthly payments while staying in their home.

For 10 months, the Henrys paid a reduced rate of $651, until they say the bank inexplicably returned their last check, explaining the couple could pay more than $30,000 to reinstate their original loan terms or face foreclosure.
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2011/12/occupy_our_homes_downriver_cou.html


Sad story. But that's America, eh? Have a stroke and screw you go live in a gutter.

What sucks is that they were making their modified loan payments of $651 and then the bank inexplicably returned their last payment and demanded $30,000 because the loan was sold to Fannie Mae.

Oh well I guess the lady who had the stroke and her pastor and the protesters will all get arrested and go to jail. Meanwhile the Federal Reserve will continue printing cash to hand out to banksters and Greeks (Joe Biden even jokes about it), Americans will continue to be thrown out of their homes, and the top 1% will continue to gorge themselves on these mountains of free cash.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Cog » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 06:21:13

The Henry's are entitled to exactly what is in their loan documents and nothing more. If they can't make the payments, then they should move to an apartment. There is no right to affordable housing. Another myth propogated by the progressives.

If their friends want to be useful to the Henry's, they should offer to pay off their mortgage for them. Maybe Cid and Sixtrings could lead off this effort by setting up a Paypal account and make it happen.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 06:34:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ItalyRules', 'T')his problem is easily solved. Double the miminum wage and provide basic healthcare.

Show a little compassion for God's sake. $500.00 a week take home pay for 40 hrs/wk and the ability to go get a prescription when you need one, is not a lot to ask.

You must understand that once proper accounting standards are applied, you will find something like 80% of Western corporate world to be bankrupt.
Companies like GM in America or Unicredito in Italy are carrying on existing only due to perpetual accounting frauds.
Of course this charade is falling apart as we speak and prospects for employees there are bleak indeed.
Senior managers will get their golden parachutes though...
On the other hand small (non-corporate) businesses are commonly operating on low profit margins.
Any increases of minimum wage will only result in more and more workers being fired.

You are calling $250 weekly pay to be unfair and you consider workers earning this to be poor.

So look for example on Indian standards of pay where blue collar worker is earning $ 20 per week.

I would rather expect Western standards of pay to collapse to similar range than to double.
Oil age is going away and life in lalaland is about to change.
We can expect return to a situation where 0.1% makes new aristocracy, about 5-20% manage to keep their freedom and remaining 80% enjoys debt bondage and other forms of slavery.
That is how humanity used to work for thousands of years before oil age and it also will work like this after it.

Revolution?
Don't even think about that.
With current weaponry it would not even be a war.
It would be just an execution of defenceless crowds of revolutionaries.
And *if* for some miraculous reason revolution have succeeded, you will quickly enjoy North Korean or South Sudanese standards of life.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Cog » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 06:47:11

If you are a smart player you will be gaming a way to stay in the 5-20%. As for the bottom 80%, sorry about all that. We were just kidding with that whole middle class experience thing.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby Novus » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 08:06:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')
What sucks is that they were making their modified loan payments of $651 and then the bank inexplicably returned their last payment and demanded $30,000 because the loan was sold to Fannie Mae.


That is exactly what happened to my Aunt. She has a good job and still does. Was paying the mortgage every month but then the bank was sold and changed names. The new bank demanded $25,000 be paid immediately into an escrow fund because the loan was considered high risk. A year later they foreclosed on her even though she was still paying the Mortgage. It was criminal what the bank did but the laws never help the little guy.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby ItalyRules » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 11:56:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou are calling $250 weekly pay to be unfair and you consider workers earning this to be poor.

So look for example on Indian standards of pay where blue collar worker is earning $ 20 per week.


1. Comparison is apples to oranges. Cost of living is not comparable.

2. Do you really want India as a model for the US? May sound great to the bloodsucking rich, but US citizens will be dragging them from their expensive cars and stringing them up before such a thing were allowed.

Plantagenet, you are just a liar and a troll. There is no one in Italy being paid as low a wage as the US minimum wage. Italy pays a living wage.

Italy is a good example of how collective bargaining raises wages for everyone, not just the sector they are bargaining for.

The corrolation between the reduction in Union membership and decline in real wages in the US, demonstrates what happens whe collective bargaining does not set wages. Collective bargaining is the only way for the working class to have a voice in determining how much they will be paid.

Capitalism works against the best interests of the working class.

Since your Unions are practically non-existant, requiring the minimum wage to be a living wage and tying it to cost of living, is the only solution I can see to prevent even worse wage slavery than already takes place in the US.

It's going to take a total rehabilitation of your culture to heal the ravages of Capitalism you have suffered.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street demonstrations spread pt 2

Postby vision-master » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 12:17:46

Planted is a trust funder.
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