[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'S')omebodies got to pay and it looks like it will be the little guy. http://www.reuters.com/article/pressReleasesMolt/idUSTRE5464DP20090507

[deMolay]

Maybe no one told you but wealth is very portable. Generally what happens all over the world when you squeeze the rich too hard, they and their wealth leaves the country. And the little guy gets squeezed. That means you. It won't just be taxes that they use to squeeze you. But fees for everything you need from them. As the beast begins to find that it has become unsustainable it will lash out, and squeeze any one and all they can to maintain their grip on power.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'M')aybe no one told you but wealth is very portable. Generally what happens all over the world when you squeeze the rich too hard, they and their wealth leaves the country. And the little guy gets squeezed. That means you. It won't just be taxes that they use to squeeze you. But fees for everything you need from them. As the beast begins to find that it has become unsustainable it will lash out, and squeeze any one and all they can to maintain their grip on power.

[deMolay]

Tax revenue all over the USA is plunging. Don't think the rich can avoid taxes in the USA. Gee I wonder why there has been an extreme shortage of physical gold. They have been anticipating this and have been liquidating and buying gold. As to your brave mispelled statement, "Good Riddens" you better hope not, because then their tax burden will become yours.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'T')ax revenue all over the USA is plunging. Don't think the rich can avoid taxes in the USA. Gee I wonder why there has been an extreme shortage of physical gold. They have been anticipating this and have been liquidating and buying gold. As to your brave mispelled statement, "Good Riddens" you better hope not, because then their tax burden will become yours.

[deMolay]

Gee I wonder what all these lines and graphs mean. What they mean vision master is that when you can no longer squeeze out the tax dollars you have to cut services. So even tho you claim you pay less than 10%, whenever you need a service from Gubmint you will have to pay a fee. Tax by another name. http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/07/news/economy/state_budget_gaps/index.htm

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'G')ee I wonder what all these lines and graphs mean. What they mean vision master is that when you can no longer squeeze out the tax dollars you have to cut services. So even tho you claim you pay less than 10%, whenever you need a service from Gubmint you will have to pay a fee. Tax by another name. http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/07/news/economy/state_budget_gaps/index.htm

[vision-master]

Here's another one.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')n omnibus tax bill proposal to end the state's home mortgage interest deduction and replace it with a credit capped at $420. This afternoon Lenczewski's office sent out a list of talking points and numbers seeking to demonstrate that the measure is a boon to most Minnesota homeowners, and captures the bulk of its additional revenue from the state's tonier addresses.

The bill would offer the $420 credit on home mortage interest payments up to $10,000 a year, but it would no longer offer larger deductions for the larger interest payments on top-dollar mortgages. Today's release carves up its impact this way.

[Schmuto]

VM and I agree on a lot of things.

When it comes to money, however, we disagree.

VM has a very well defined view of rich/poor.

Me? Not so much.

VM is much more on the Marxist end of the spectrum. I'm much more on the libertarian end.

I'm guessing - correct me if I'm wrong VM - you'd tax the rich until they weren't rich anymore if you were in charge. Is that right?

Me? I'd lower taxes for everybody as close to zero as possible.

VM's position is made clear by the graph he posted.

It shows very clearly that the % of total taxes paid by "the rich" has increased over the last few years.

So their proportional burden has increased.

But that's not enough for VM.

What would you do VM?

And by the way, what do you call "rich"?

Everybody has different standards.

Some people think Paris Hilton represents rich.
Others think any doctor or lawyer type is rich.
Others think 100k a year income makes you rich.
Others think you're rich if you have 1 mill in the bank.

Here's my definition of rich:

Check yes or no for each of these - for the cumulative ones, check yes for all that apply:

You own a car/truck outright or otherwise.
You own a cell phone on which you have a monthly plan.
You live in a house.
You own a house outright or you have a house with a mortgage in your name.
You own more than 5 pairs of footwear.
You have a TV plan for which you pay money.
You are more than 10 pounds overweight.
You are more than 20 pounds overweight.
You are more than 30 pounds overweight.
You are more than 40 pounds overweight.
You receive free money from the government for food.
You have health insurance.
You have gone on any kind of a vacation in any of the last 5 years.
You have gone on any kind of a vacation in any of the last 3 years.
You have gone on any kind of vacation within the last 12 months.
You have eaten food that came in a plastic container within the last 12 months.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 10 years.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 9 years.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 8 years.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 7 years.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 6 years.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 5 years.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 4 years.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 3 years.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 2 years.
You haven't involuntarily gone without food for more than 24 hours in any of the last 12 months.
You have been to a dentist in the last 5 years.
You have been to a dentist in the last 4 years.
You have been to a dentist in the last 3 years.
You have been to a dentist in the last 2 years.
You have been to a dentist in the last 12 months.
You own a computer.
You own two computers.
You own one apple product.
You own two apple products.
You own three apple products.
You own four apple products.
You access the Internet.
You have high speed internet access.
You own prescriptive eyewear.
You have a pet that you feed with commercial pet food.
You have eaten at a restaurant within the last 12 months.
You have eaten at a restaurant within the last 10 months.
You have eaten at a restaurant within the last 8 months.
You have eaten at a restaurant within the last 6 months.
You have eaten at a restaurant within the last 4 months.
You have eaten at a restaurant within the last 2 months.
You have eaten at a restaurant within the last 7 days.
You wear jewelry that costs more than 100 dollars when it was new.
You wear jewelry that costs more than 1000 dollars when it was new.
You have 1 year of post secondary education.
You have 2 years of post secondary education.
You have 3 years of post secondary education.
You have 4 years of post secondary education.
You have 5 years of post secondary education.
You have 6 years of post secondary education.
You smoke cigarettes.
You drink alcohol.
You use illicit drugs.


Scoring, out of 59 -

More than 10 - you doing much better than most of the poorest people on the planet today, and significantly better than most of the poor people who have ever lived. Based upon this alone, you are in the top 1% of wealth of people who have ever lived, and 99% of all those people would swap places with you because you are rich.

More than 20 - you very rich. You have enjoyed an existence replete with luxuries.

More than 30 - you are extremely rich. Your living is very easy, and you are among the richest ever.

More than 40 - you are filthy rich. About 99.99% of people who have ever lived would gladly switch places with you in order to obtain your wealth.

More than 50 - you are truly blessed. With the exception of the very few elitely wealthy who have lived in the last few thousand years, virtually everybody who has ever walked the planet would trade places with you if offered the opportunity. About a billion Indians and a billion Chinese would swap with you immediately. Of course, they wouldn't necessarily use your immense wealth to do stupid, self destructive things, but they would trade with you in order to access the wealth you have.

It's all relative people.

For someone like VM, a dyed-in-the-wool labor union marxist, "rich" is only a word that is used to distinguish class. It has no objective meaning. If VM were alive 200 years ago, what he is today would constitute "rich" to him back then. It's a short view of rich that's fabricated for the sole purpose of setting up the classes. After all, what good is class warfare if nobody knows what the classes are?

For someone like me, "rich" can only be measured in relation to a world without FFs.

The oil age was an aberration. It will soon be over.

Then we will return to where we were.

And when they look back 200 years from now, and they're toiling out a living like all but a few of us used to do just a scant few hundred years ago, they will view all of us - the children of the oil age - as fabulously wealthy.

"Imagine," they will think, "living in beautiful houses, with magnificent cars in every driveway - food a 5 minute drive away - and cheap! oh so cheap. And they were so rich they were all obese, because they didn't need to move much. And they spent their money on cigarettes and nincompods and booze and using things called "commercial airlines" to fly all over the place. And even the ditch diggers could afford to do it. Even the guys who cleaned septic tanks took vacations. And they bought orange juice in plastic containers made from this stuff they used to have called "natural gas." And there was this magical place, called "Disneyland," where everything was perfect, and the rich Americans would fly and drive their wonderful cars there. And go on rides and see wondrous things. No go to sleep Billy, because if we don't get the wheat planted tomorrow . . . "

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')Others think 100k a year income makes you rich.

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'M')aybe no one told you but wealth is very portable. Generally what happens all over the world when you squeeze the rich too hard, they and their wealth leaves the country. And the little guy gets squeezed. That means you.

[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'M')aybe no one told you but wealth is very portable. Generally what happens all over the world when you squeeze the rich too hard, they and their wealth leaves the country. And the little guy gets squeezed. That means you. It won't just be taxes that they use to squeeze you. But fees for everything you need from them. As the beast begins to find that it has become unsustainable it will lash out, and squeeze any one and all they can to maintain their grip on power.

[ki11ercane]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o don't cheat on your taxes and you should be fine. (sort of) It's quite possible to reduce your taxes legally, and/or organize your life to depend less on income.

Pay fewer taxes - reduce the need to earn!

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')The oil age was an aberration. It will soon be over.

Then we will return to where we were.

And when they look back 200 years from now, and they're toiling out a living like all but a few of us used to do just a scant few hundred years ago, they will view all of us - the children of the oil age - as fabulously wealthy.

"Imagine," they will think, "living in beautiful houses, with magnificent cars in every driveway - food a 5 minute drive away - and cheap! oh so cheap. And they were so rich they were all obese, because they didn't need to move much. And they spent their money on cigarettes and nincompods and booze and using things called "commercial airlines" to fly all over the place. And even the ditch diggers could afford to do it. Even the guys who cleaned septic tanks took vacations. And they bought orange juice in plastic containers made from this stuff they used to have called "natural gas." And there was this magical place, called "Disneyland," where everything was perfect, and the rich Americans would fly and drive their wonderful cars there. And go on rides and see wondrous things. No go to sleep Billy, because if we don't get the wheat planted tomorrow . . . "

[vision-master]

It's time to power down our lifes.

I think Ludi has it figured out, her and pops and patience and a few others around here. Most here still want 'the life' of the 90's. The party continues.......

[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'T')his is why we've come off a long period of Reagan conservatism and now have Obama and his "government for all people" agenda, with the Democrats rising to overwhelming ascendancy almost within the blink of an eye. I suspect this won't last too long, as the money (and borrowing capability) just isn't going to be there. At which point this country will most likely take a hard shift to libertarianism - simply because the government will no longer have the resources at its disposal to carry on like it has been. At that point, there might not even be a national government left...

[vision-master]

Who the fack cares anymore, the economy is going down the shitter no matter waht.

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')The oil age was an aberration. It will soon be over.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')The oil age was an aberration. It will soon be over.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '
')You will be out of here (this forum) within a year.