[Graeme]

BMW tried to bring a FCV to market in the past. But this time it is more likely because many other big players are entering the market. Toyota will definitely ramp up it's mass production as stated above.

[Graeme]

You didn't mention hydrogen fuel. In any case, read this link from page 19.

[Logic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'B')MW tried to bring a FCV to market in the past. But this time it is more likely because many other big players are entering the market. Toyota will definitely ramp up it's mass production as stated above.

[sparky]

.
there is some misunderstanding about energy and usable medium
there is steam , compressed air , gravity fed hydro , electricity and even fuel
those are not energy they are distribution systems
energy is the first basic power feeding the distribution system , hydrogen is, or not ,an efficient transmission

it is not an energy source

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sparky', '.')
there is some misunderstanding about energy and usable medium
there is steam , compressed air , gravity fed hydro , electricity and even fuel
those are not energy they are distribution systems
energy is the first basic power feeding the distribution system , hydrogen is, or not ,an efficient transmission

it is not an energy source

[Graeme]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'Y')ou didn't mention hydrogen fuel. In any case, read this link from page 19.

[Graeme]

Tanada, So far BEVs are winning the environmental battle according to this study. But the battle is far from over for FCV.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')REET reveals that what matters most is how the electricity and hydrogen needed to power advanced vehicles are sourced. Using today’s electrical infrastructure, BEVs generate only 39 percent of the emissions produced by FCVs when hydrogen is separated from water using home electrolysis. Using the cleaner electrical grids already in place in California, BEVs win again by producing only 27 percent of the FCV’s greenhouse-gas emissions. Centralized mass production of hydrogen by steam reformation of natural gas helps FCVs, but they would still produce nearly twice the BEV’s emissions and consume about 50 percent more energy.

To achieve parity, major infrastructure improvements are required. The hope is that by 2050, renewable energy sources will provide the electricity to recharge BEVs and to produce FCV hydrogen via electrolysis for less environmental impact.

[sparky]

.
Graeme using electricity , a produced power medium to produce hydrogen , another power medium
is like dancing the moon walk , the illusion of moving forward while moving back .

[Graeme]

Seven Barriers To Alt-Fuel Vehicles: Can Hydrogen Fuel Cells Overcome Them?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1') – High first cost for vehicle: Now partially addressed: Toyota’s MegaFactory should jump-start experience curve effects, bringing sticker prices down

2 – On-board fuel storage: Addressed: Both the Toyota Mirai and Hyundai Tucson fuel-cell vehicles have adequate range and cargo space

3 – Safety and liability concerns: Addressed: Tucson Fuel Cell customers pump their own hydrogen in Canada; in Japan, attendants do the pumping – but then, they generally pump gasoline, too.

4 – High fueling cost compared to gasoline: (still a barrier)

5 – Limited fuel stations: (still a huge barrier)

6 – Improvements in the competition: Partially addressed: Toyota expects fuel-cell vehicles to have price premiums equivalent to those of its hybrid vehicles once economies of scale are fully realized

7 – Problems delivering cost-effective emissions reductions: Still a major barrier in the U.S.--but in Europe, where natural gas is three times as expensive, hydrogen from renewable-electricity electrolysis could soon be cost-competitive with hydrogen from natural gas reforming. (For a breakdown, see the “Renewable Hydrogen” tab at www.tinyurl.com/FCStats)

[Graeme]

US Energy Dept. Shakes Off Fuel Cell Doubters, Funds Two New Projects & $1 Million Prize

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o matter how much you try to convince them that fuel cell electric vehicles just won’t fly, the US Department of Energy still somehow clings to the belief that there is a fuel cell in your future. The agency has just announced the second phase of two new cutting-edge fuel cell projects, and it is pushing ahead with a $1 million competition for the best small-scale, on-site hydrogen generation and refueling system.

The competition is open to hydrogen systems that run on either natural gas or electricity, but considering the bad news piling onto natural gas fracking just this week — low birth weight babies and infant mortality on top of yet more earthquake problems — we’re pulling for electricity.

[Graeme]

BMW 5 Series GT Fuel Cell concept: German giant gambles on hydrogen power

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an hydrogen win out over electricity in the alternative fuel race? BMW’s 5 Series GT Fuel Cell concept says that it will – and it’s all down to a new breakthrough in refuelling technology.

BMW has been dabbling in hydrogen-powered cars for over 30 years. In more recent times however the spotlight has shifted towards battery technology, but now the tables are turning back again.

BMW is predicting the arrival of mass-production hydrogen cars within the next five years. They’re not the only manufacturer to be saying that. Intensive activity to install hydrogen refuelling networks in Japan, Korea and Germany underlines the German company’s belief, shared by Toyota and Honda, that battery power is about to be relegated to the status of a bit part player by hydrogen.

The new 5 Series GT Fuel Cell concept looks like a normal 5GT but under its skin are a fuel cell stack (co-developed with Toyota) and a new type of storage tank that super-cools the hydrogen to -220deg C. to make a 7.1kg hydrogen payload possible. That’s more than three times the amount able to be stored at present. It raises the 5GT’s potential range to over 430 miles and allows refuelling in five minutes for around £50 at today’s prices.

BMW’s test car had its rear wheels driven by a 199bhp electric motor through a new two-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission. There’s a small 1kWh battery over the rear axle. Though it’s in the early stages of development it drives well. Not only is it fast and smooth, it seems to handle and ride better than the regular 5GT.

[hvacman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')new type of storage tank that super-cools the hydrogen to -220deg C. to make a 7.1kg hydrogen payload possible. That’s more than three times the amount able to be stored at present. It raises the 5GT’s potential range to over 430 miles and allows refuelling in five minutes for around £50 at today’s prices.

[Tikib]

Unless batteries move beyond Lithium ion I am not convinced that they can provide a better fuel source than hydrogen.

The problem with Lithium ion is that the batteries are just too expensive. All it does is move the energy cost to the manufacturing process.

Elon Musks main contention agaist hydrogen is the cost of transporting it but anyone who suggests a large transport infrastructure for hydrogen is an idiot. Instead you generate it in large quantities at the powerplant and get people to drive to it.

[Tanada]

Hydrogen is only an energy carrier, and one with a lousy energy density to boot. You get something like three times the energy density by using Ammonia and it does not have the leak problems hydrogen has, it already has a pipeline system in places and its not hard to make with electricity.

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'T')anada ammonia transport fuel has the same problems and limitations as NG. While it may be freely abundant, it is a gas at normal pressures and temperatures (−33.34 °C boiling pt). That fact alone renders it practically useless given our current infrastructures. What piplelines? Do they go to Vermont? Or North Dakota? (two states with no gas piplines of any kind). It also means expensive compressors are necessary to refuel and maintain pressure for reasonable energy density compaction and storage