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New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency gains

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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby Gerben » Sat 17 Mar 2007, 16:30:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', '.')..A combined cycle plant is the most efficient prime mover ever produced by humanity, with a thermal efficiency of over 60%. I think this system has been tried experimentally in truck engines, but like any turbine system, it does not suit varying speeds.
...

Since hybrid cars don't have varying speeds for their engine, using a micro turbine and a small heat engine might give a nice efficiency in a hybrid car.
BMW is using a heat engine (they call it turbosteamer), but in combination with a regular ICE.
A microturbine might be less efficient than an ICE, but the total combination could be more efficient than a single ICE, while the combination does not add as much weight and complexity as the ICE/turbosteamer combination.
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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby invest_in_politics » Sat 17 Mar 2007, 18:11:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', 'B')y the turn of the 20th century the science of thermodynamics was advanced enough that the efficiency of any engine could be predicted fairly reliably just by knowing the maximum temperature and the pressure ratio.


Nice post. The reason I chose this quote is that it ties back to the paper I referenced. That paper quantifies the value of "fairly reliably" and shows that the calculations you speak of are substantially qualitative. The theory offered therein provides a tool that accurately predicts engine efficiency. No "fairly" about it. Dr. Tinker's theory is dead on.

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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby malcomatic_51 » Sat 17 Mar 2007, 18:43:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('invest_in_politics', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', 'B')y the turn of the 20th century the science of thermodynamics was advanced enough that the efficiency of any engine could be predicted fairly reliably just by knowing the maximum temperature and the pressure ratio.


Nice post. The reason I chose this quote is that it ties back to the paper I referenced. That paper quantifies the value of "fairly reliably" and shows that the calculations you speak of are substantially qualitative. The theory offered therein provides a tool that accurately predicts engine efficiency. No "fairly" about it. Dr. Tinker's theory is dead on.

IIP


I would be interested to read the full paper but can't get at it online. If you have a full copy I would most appreciate it if you could send me a copy via PM.

Many thanks!
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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby jbeckton » Tue 20 Mar 2007, 12:53:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gerben', ' ')80%+ efficiency should not be very difficult to obtain.


??????????????

Have you any references for such a claim?

What kind of temperatures is this engine operating between?
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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby Gerben » Tue 20 Mar 2007, 19:21:47

Never mind that remark (I removed it).

Which doesn't mean it is totally impossible, just impractical in a vehicle. You can use a lot of the waste heat of an engine in a heat engine. The more heat cycles you add, the more heat you can use. The problem is that it's not cost-effective (and adds too much weight on a vehicle).
It's cost-effective in large power plants (Combined Cycle, Gas Turbine + Steam Engine); but not used at lower capacities or with gas engines (less heat and at lower temperatures, because of higher gas engine efficiency). By using a different medium (with a lower boiling point than steam, in a secondairy cycle) you can use more heat.

Some rough estimates:
Combined cycle = ~ 66%
Gas Turbine = ~ 40%
-> Heat Engine = ~ 43%
Gas Engine = ~ 45%
-> Gas Engine + Heat Engine = ~ 69%
-> 2 heat cycles = ~ 82%
In practice you’ll probably need a third cycle and good insulation.

It's all about money (and in vehicles about weight). Luckily energy is still cheap.
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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby invest_in_politics » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 11:05:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', '.')..Being aware of the effort and the vast range of ideas that have gone into achieving the gains we have made in the last century, I am not very excited by anyone who casually claims they can improve efficiency by the equivalent of 50 years' of effort "through minor modifications". I have Googled Tinker and he has a fraction of my own Internet profile - and I am nowhere near being a genius. I'd put him with other minor inventors as seeking attention for a modest idea with perhaps a little promise in it.


Again, very nice post. I only respond to point out a couple of things. Dr. Tinker has published a scientific paper on a new heat engine model that, without modification, accurately predicts observed efficiencies for vastly different engine implementations--a result that is not possible with currently accepted theory. That does not appear to be "seeking attention for a modest idea".

After some Googling myself, it is apparent that Dr. Tinker does own a portion of the company that has exclusive rights to marketing his patented inventions ( fsnc.com ) and that company did distribute a press release announcing the publication of his paper. That may be seen as "seeking attention", although it is obviously a business decision.

Finally, as for the magnitude of his internet presence, I doubt that that is an accurate measure of the viability of his ideas. Wasn't Carnot's total contribution to the scientific literature of his day just the single paper he wrote in his career?

Just a personal observation: You have class as a PeakOil poster that I admire and feel others could benefit in emulating.

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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby invest_in_politics » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 20:39:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', '.')..recollection from historic data held by my former employer Brown Boveri Corporation...


Does this mean that you were part of the COLSS development?

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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby invest_in_politics » Fri 23 Mar 2007, 08:43:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', '.')..Not all engines rely on heat flow. There are isothermal processes that can theoretically be 100% efficient, but they are all too awkward to make as practical engines..


I was rereading some of the posts and ran across this one. It should be pointed out that an isothermal engine would violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby malcomatic_51 » Fri 23 Mar 2007, 19:13:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('invest_in_politics', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', '.')..recollection from historic data held by my former employer Brown Boveri Corporation...


Does this mean that you were part of the COLSS development?

IIP


No it does not mean I was part of the COLSS development, whatever that was or is. I was responsible for a wide range of information gathering and analysis to assist the Board in making long term decisions regarding R&D and product development investment. It was bloody hard work. At the time the company had just been formed of scores of previously proud, independent national companies (of which BBC was only one along with ASEA, Combustion Engineering, Sulzer and many others). My job involved criss crossing all these jealously guarded boundaries set up by the local Old Guard of each company. Plus, I had to become reasonably expert in all the main power plant technologies. Interesting work, but bloody hard on the people-handling side. It was great to live in central Europe and be able to drive to exotic cities like Prague or Munich for the weekend. Long before any hint of Peak Oil of course! On the other hand, certain traits of the Swiss character were a little wearing for the British mentality, most notably the utter disregard for privacy or minding your own business.

This thread appears to be a little shorter than it was when I last visited it!
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Re: New heat engine model predicts substantial efficiency ga

Unread postby invest_in_politics » Sat 24 Mar 2007, 09:04:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', '.')..No it does not mean I was part of the COLSS development, whatever that was or is...


It sounds like an interesting, albeit frustrating, occupation.

COLSS = Core Operating Limit Supervisory System

COLSS was a proprietary computer system developed by Combustion Engineering to allow higher power densities in nuclear plants. Brown Boveri purchased Combustion Engineering in the early 90s, so I thought you might have had a hand in it.

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