[davep]

Oh, and as for Europeans not understanding nature. Hmmm...

I've lived in England, Canada, Italy and France. Frankly, the Canadians' major link with nature was to shoot stuff (ok, it was a small town) with no thought of the impact.

A lot of English have a visceral understanding of nature and are leaving their home country in droves to find somewhere closer to nature. I once lived in a place called Dreux in France, where the Druids throughout Europe were said to come together. Italain telly is rubbish, but there are lots of non-condescending programmes on food and where it comes from. They have a similar appreciation of "terroir" to the French.

I live in a village of 500 people in 12 thousand acres. Even the hunters look after the environment, because otherwise there would be no hunt.

Simple trans-atlantic comparisons are too facile. Try to be a little more sophisticated in your arguments.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', ' ')food aid and agricultural help

[Ludi]

I strongly disagree, JP. Green Revolution methods are counterproductive.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '
')
If I understand your point correctly, you are saying we are responsible for feeding these people because we have exploited them and their resources for so long. I can see your point, but I can't reconcile it with the other things mentioned. Sometimes there simply is no good solution to a problem.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'T')here is no 'way' forward that will suit us all - only a general way for all of mankind, and that has to be, as it always should be, the path of least suffering for the majority.

Beyond that I know not. But I will not say that the attempt to find this path is not worth making.

JP

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') strongly disagree, JP. Green Revolution methods are counterproductive.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('virgincrude', 'T')hreadbare, you're still coming at the notion of a gutrench over destroying the environment from a badly informed position. My 'little country' (Spain) has more protected wild environment than any other 'little country' in Europe. (We're fighting to reintroduce wild lynx, bears and wolves- for what it matters,) I too have lived in France, close to the Jura mountains and right next to Geneva and the nearby Swiss Alps. I have experienced wild open spaces. Just not the Great Lakes.

Whoever you had contact with in Europe did not necessarily share your experience, it does not therefore mean no Spaniard has ever been camping out, for Chrissakes. Yes, the wild and open is harder to find in our 'little countries' but that does not mean we don't know how to appreciate or take care of it. Just because our wild and open spaces are smaller than the Grand Canyon doesn't mean we treat them with disdain. It is utterly ridiculous to state people in Europe have no aesthetic sense of nature. You've painted a picture of a paved over area, with people unable to experience the weather because they spend their time cocooned inside their apartment blocks, scoffing at environmentalists, based on a few aquaintances you made!

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'O')h, and as for Europeans not understanding nature. Hmmm...

I've lived in England, Canada, Italy and France. Frankly, the Canadians' major link with nature was to shoot stuff (ok, it was a small town) with no thought of the impact.

A lot of English have a visceral understanding of nature and are leaving their home country in droves to find somewhere closer to nature. I once lived in a place called Dreux in France, where the Druids throughout Europe were said to come together. Italain telly is rubbish, but there are lots of non-condescending programmes on food and where it comes from. They have a similar appreciation of "terroir" to the French.

I live in a village of 500 people in 12 thousand acres. Even the hunters look after the environment, because otherwise there would be no hunt.

Simple trans-atlantic comparisons are too facile. Try to be a little more sophisticated in your arguments.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'O')h, and as for Europeans not understanding nature. Hmmm...

I've lived in England, Canada, Italy and France. Frankly, the Canadians' major link with nature was to shoot stuff (ok, it was a small town) with no thought of the impact.

A lot of English have a visceral understanding of nature and are leaving their home country in droves to find somewhere closer to nature. I once lived in a place called Dreux in France, where the Druids throughout Europe were said to come together. Italain telly is rubbish, but there are lots of non-condescending programmes on food and where it comes from. They have a similar appreciation of "terroir" to the French.

I live in a village of 500 people in 12 thousand acres. Even the hunters look after the environment, because otherwise there would be no hunt.

Simple trans-atlantic comparisons are too facile. Try to be a little more sophisticated in your arguments.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')
Again, I didn't say Europeans don't understand nature. I said they can't have the same experience of nature, because there is so little nature left.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'T')here is no 'way' forward that will suit us all - only a general way for all of mankind, and that has to be, as it always should be, the path of least suffering for the majority.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'T')here is no 'way' forward that will suit us all - only a general way for all of mankind, and that has to be, as it always should be, the path of least suffering for the majority.

[threadbear]

JPL, You've illustrated my point with your photo of a verdant landscape that was once covered in native forest.
My mother's father's family is from the Highlands. Gunns of Caithness.

[threadbear]

DaveP, The small rural village is probably the most sincere approximation of a natural experience any of us could ever have. I mean I've spent some time in Princess Louisa inlet,out of radio range, noone within miles, deep fjord, never been logged, pristine, Grizzly bears. But I have to be honest with you, I was cruising in my boat outfitted with all the modern conveniences. We're all several degrees removed from actually LIVING in nature at this time, so I plead....ready for it...GUILTY

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'J')PL, You've illustrated my point with your photo of a verdant landscape that was once covered in native forest.
My mother's father's family is from the Highlands. Gunns of Caithness.

[thuja]

JPL- Die-off is not a denialist term- its simply a loaded term. Instead we should talk about population contraction. The Earth will only to be able to carry a fraction of the humans now on the planet in a post-petroleum/GW world.

The developed world is already primed for population contraction and it is already happening in much of Eastern Europe/ex-Soviet Union. Western Europe will be contracting in the next decade. Lowered life expectancies due to the consequences of Post-Peak will likely accelerate this trend but it won't be apocalyptic- just a natural contraction over a period of 50-100 years.

Its the Developing World that faces the largest challenges in not experiencing massive Die-Offs. How to combat that? Incentivized population control, birth control, large block grants to support local infrastructure, ag, conservation, etc...essentially weaning from 20th century industrialized s of living. Will it work in time? Very doubtful...but absolutely worth a try...

[PenultimateManStanding]

phosphates. Without them, forget it. It won't matter how pretty and green the countryside is.

[threadbear]

" Rock phosphate is quarried from phosphate beds in sedimentary rocks. In former times it was simply crushed and used as is, but the crude form is now used only in organic farming."--wikipedia

Sounds good to me, PMS.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'T')hanks. I'm interested in your ideas.

[threadbear]

JPL, Having toppled who? Monte Queste? Do you know something we don't? I thought he just stepped out momentarily due to his outbreak of shingles, or vinyl siding, or whatever it was.