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Left and Right, a macho thing?

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Left and Right, a macho thing?

Unread postby Schweinshaxe » Thu 22 Sep 2005, 22:17:37

I consider myself to be right-wing. With being right-wing I mean that I prefer individualism over collectivism. I’m not particularly interested in economical or political systems. I care more about personal freedom.

I have become more and more interested in the actual difference between a person who considers himself a right-wing and a person who considers himself a left-wing. I have come to the conclusion that the difference is not actually a belief in a particular system but more a state of mind. The right-wing people tend to be more macho and the left-wing people more timid.

I just read an editorial in a Swedish newspaper which can be considered very right-wing (http://www.svd.se). It was about the hurricanes which have struck the USA and the tsunami which hit Asia last year. The person who wrote it talked about how those disasters primarily affected poor people and that a lot can be done to prevent the horrible results of such disasters. The people writing the editorials in that newspaper normally rant about taxes, workers too high wages and so on. You can comment the articles in that newspaper. It took just a couple of posts before it turned into a global warming war. The leftists meant that GW was causing the disasters and so on and the rightists meant that GW discussion is just an attack on the USA and free enterprise and so on.

I’m a right-wing individualist. I don’t like taxes, immigration, the State and politicians and so on. I do however feel responsible somehow for the Expletive deleted. up situation we’re in. People starve to death, the rainforest is being destroyed and the air and water is being polluted. This is happening while I enjoy free coffee at my well paid job.

Is the left / right thing a belief in a political and economical system or a manifestation of something else?
Was soll das?
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Re: Left and Right, a macho thing?

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Thu 22 Sep 2005, 22:33:59

I'm a pretty left-wing type, but I'm far from timid.

There's a book out by a guy named George Lakoff called "Moral Politics" in which he proposes to analyze via cognitive studies how liberals and conservatives think. I'm not all the way through with it, but it's pretty interesting. He's a liberal himself, but he seems to be very fair--he hasn't said anything so far that would be a value judgement.

The gist of the book is trying to understand why liberals and conservatives, more often than not, seem to almost be speaking different languages. Why each side seems to focus on different problems or different aspects of the same problem, and why diverse stances (such as anti-abortion, pro-death penalty, anti-taxes for conservatives) all get classified as right or left.

So far, it's quite fascinating.
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Re: Left and Right, a macho thing?

Unread postby Pops » Thu 22 Sep 2005, 22:35:43

Don’t feel confused; many people in the US think that the right is the macho position too.

Not to mention the Godly, traditional, conservative, compassionate and acceptable-at-the-coffee shop position could be easily confused with a go-along-to-get-along sheep.

There are some folks who think you can be charitable to those less fortunate and still protective of what you have earned.

You might call us the help-the-less-fortunate-but-kick-your-butt-if-you-mess-with-us liberals.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Left and Right, a macho thing?

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 22 Sep 2005, 23:56:25

By your definition of individualism vs. collectivism, I'd be right wing. I'm not really right or left, however, although I have been mistaken as being either far left OR far right. I'm a libertarian, but not necessarily right or left on economic issues.

I prefer government to stay out of my business just as much as I prefer corporations to do the same. To allow one to violate the rights of individual people while railing against the other is hypocritical at best. I generally don't like others to try to impose upon other people their own religious or moral beliefs, be it through legislation or other coercive means.

So all those soccer moms willing to sacrifice my freedom for an illusion of security with support of big government(homeland security), or want to ban pornography because they are too incompetent as parents to keep an eye on their children? All those religious Nazis that don't think gays should be treated the same as everyone else? Those raving PETA Expletive deleted. who for some reason believe that I shouldn't be able to enjoy a rack of ribs because they think eating meat is wrong? That anti-gun crowd that don't want me to legally acquire an assault rifle because they think I'm going to give it to some kids so they can shoot up a school? Those spendthrift government ninnys who want to take even more of my hard earned money for their pet projects, whether it is corporate welfare or another illegal war that I do not agree with? Those neocon fascists that would like to draft me or others my age to fight their illegal oil wars? Those industries that damage my body and property with their pollution without paying me the money for the damages?

Expletive deleted. them all. For all I care, someone could round them up in a pen and systematically execute them all and it wouldn't bother me in the least. If enough of my rights get siphoned away(ie. military draft, Marshall law, or otherwise), I'll just have to do it myself if it will provide one last hope of personal freedom for myself.

Left or right is a flawed concept. Collectivism vs. Individualism has little bearing on one's rights compared to authoritarianism vs. libertarianism. Social authoritarians on the left or right can have their beliefs, but they have no right to force me or others to adjust my or their lives around them. Such people are little short of fascists. If any social conservatives here are offended by this statement so be it, you have every right to be. Say what you wish. In the meantime, if you still fail to understand why I am the way I am, and why I dislike the views of social authoritarians and even the people that wish to apply those views, you can go Expletive and objectionable text deleted. .
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Left and Right, a macho thing?

Unread postby katkinkate » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 05:53:19

Yep. Looks like its time to revisit, yet again the Political Compass site. Enjoy.

I'm a social libertarian myself. 8)
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but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
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Re: Left and Right, a macho thing?

Unread postby Sencha » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 06:54:32

My personal experience tells me that most right-wingers are so because of the image or connotations of the term, not politics. Left-wingers are the ones who usually go to greater lengths to be politically aware.
The conservatives are too emotional, they readily buy into jingoism, accept the decisions of political leaders and are generally unquestioning. They are more idealistic and dare I say, naive? Most of the conservatives I have known chose to be because it would be un-american to do otherwise.

Leftists on the other hand, I find to be much more critical of the government which is what we need today. I can't say that leftists don't play into emotions, but they are often backed up with facts that the conservatives tend to ignore. Being right is macho, a fasion statement, the left is reserved for people who are actually interested in the government and want it to change. My perception of conservatism might be specific to the brand that seems to be most commonly practiced today. I want to believe there might actually be some good in the ideology. If fact, I do agree on some of their views. But whatever good might be in it, I can't find and probably won't anytime soon.
Vision without action is a dream, action without vision is a nightmare.
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Re: Left and Right, a macho thing?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 08:56:02

I'm troubled by libertarians who seem to support corporate rights over individual rights. I just don't get it, but that seems to be the way the Libertarian party leans...
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Re: Left and Right, a macho thing?

Unread postby ohanian » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 09:33:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', 'I')’m a right-wing individualist. I don’t like taxes, immigration, the State and politicians and so on. I do however feel responsible somehow for the Expletive deleted. up situation we’re in. People starve to death, the rainforest is being destroyed and the air and water is being polluted. This is happening while I enjoy free coffee at my well paid job.

The moral of the story is Enjoy your coffee.

There's a Zen story that concerns a man hanging over the edge of a cliff by a vine, which is slowly breaking away from the face of the cliff. He can't climb up, because there is a man-eating tiger waiting on the plateau above, which is how he got into the predicament in the first place. As the man ponders his fate, he notices a berry hanging off of the vine to which he is clinging. He reaches out, and plucks it, and eats, thinking "Ah, how sweet...the sweetest of berries."
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