[Newfie]

Recent news story

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/03/28/ ... -dropping/

[evilgenius]

I have a small position in Consolidated Water Company, which does desalinization. The water compact that the lower states and upper states came to, in an attempt to bring about political changes that will change actual water distribution, expires in 2026. Before it does, I reckon that taking water from the oceans will become a thing. So much of the demand that out strips supply comes from coastal cities, like LA. Phoenix may be solvable, if LA can take up some of its demand with desalinization. They already get some water from Northern California, and have huge state splitting issues over it. So, you would think desalinization would be a better investment than it used to be?

It looks like the power grid is going to be the first casualty. Boulder damn can't make power if it isn't getting flow from what they let by Lake Powell. It's bad enough, if the grid loses Glen Canyon. Wind may be a good alternative. It's pretty windy in lots of places in the American West. Solar should see gains as well. There is lots of land between the cities those damns serve and the damns themselves. There is a lot of room for solar.

Ultimately, if LA and San Diego can get their water from the oceans, then solar farms could be built, to pump water back uphill of the damns, making the damns into grid level batteries. All you really need is the political will to build in excess solar capacity now, so that daytime usage will remain clear of impacting the ability to pump water. Or they could use batteries, so that they could pump at night, to get around time of day pricing. That is, assuming Phoenix and Las Vegas can also restrain how much water they use. And populations would have to evolve a certain way. But, if successful, you might see water run all the way to Mexico again.

The Upper Basin states would have to buy into it too. I live in one of those. Like I said before, you can still buy a water wasting version of a clothes washer, simply because people don't want to fall out of love with their nostalgic understanding of what a clothes washer should look like. And, public laundries are full of them. There is no public will to make those places, laundromats, phase those out. That being the case, there is actual room for Upper Basin States to take less water from the Colorado.

There is, also, the issue of Denver taking water, from the other side of the Continental Divide. You know, the very idea of a non-drainage aspect being allowed to participate is kind of appalling. Because water use almost always comes with a return of some of the water, a percentage, back into the ground water levels. It is net of whatever amount of water is lost to evaporation.

There is probably a lot of room, and money, to be had in finding out what percentages work, and toward which ends?

But allowing water to go out of the system at the beginning of it could induce a cascade, if you don't get the drawing rights properly done, wouldn't you think? You can't allow a definition of individual rights, such as what an entity like Denver could call itself, to supersede the needs of the entire system. You know, should it come down to severe shortages within the system.

You can't just have a blind hole over the amount taken out, simply because of a need to understand rights in a more individually centered manner? Normally, you would be able to. You just need to be able to impose a difference, in the case that system wide needs exceed the local definitions.

The broader compact, which I don't know when expires, places a lot of power in the hands of the Lower Basin states. I think this sort of thing may be why, to avoid the haggling that might take place in the face of scarcity. They could foresee how ruthless the Upper Basin states could be. And, you need to understand that Colorado's political power flows through Denver, so whenever Colorado votes as a whole one way or the other they will always represent what Denver wants. The new political districts are even split over it, which make it worse for the system. Colorado, Denver, is gearing up for a fight, I think. It may just be that people think this way subconsciously, in the face of some dread they feel looming?

But we do see that there may be cause for some optimism, if the coast can take more water from the sea. I know, maybe?

[Newfie]

OF we could just learn to live with what Nature provides.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'O')F we could just learn to live with what Nature provides.

[Newfie]

We WILL learn to live with less, either by way of thoughtful planning but more likely because we will eventually have less.

Re: west coast power. Less is coming because the climate there is reverting to a dryer cycle. California can either build more nuclear plants (earthquakes), import power from other areas (build nukes elsewhere), or reduce consumption. Hard to do when you want to ban ICE’s. The current trend seems to be to reduce consumption by depopulation.

[evilgenius]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'W')e WILL learn to live with less, either by way of thoughtful planning but more likely because we will eventually have less.

Re: west coast power. Less is coming because the climate there is reverting to a dryer cycle. California can either build more nuclear plants (earthquakes), import power from other areas (build nukes elsewhere), or reduce consumption. Hard to do when you want to ban ICE’s. The current trend seems to be to reduce consumption by depopulation.

[theluckycountry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'O')F we could just learn to live with what Nature provides.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'O')F we could just learn to live with what Nature provides.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') nuclear plant to desalinate sea water might be cheaper for a coastal location then transporting water from far away but those locations in need tend to be arid locations so have plenty of sunlight to power desalination facilities.

[MonteQuest]

The 1922 Colorado River Compact divided the river among the upper basin states: Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico-and those in the lower basin: California, Nevada, and Arizona. On the basis of river flow of the 1920's, each basin was allocated 7.5 million acre feet annually. A 1944 treaty guaranteed an additional 1.5 million acre feet to the country of Mexico. However, the yearly flow of the Colorado was grossly overestimated. The allocations required a yearly average flow of 16.5 million acre feet. Depending upon whom you ask, the river has been flowing at a rate of somewhere between 13.2 MAF to 14.8 MAF since 1930. Inflow to Lake Powell, issued on April 5, 2022, by the Colorado Basin River Forecast Center, projects that the most probable inflow volume this year will be just 6.3 MAF.

Lake Powell reached full pool in June of 1980, seventeen years after the dam was completed. The lake has now fallen 176 feet below full pool, with projections to go much lower. This loss is 76% of Lake Powell's 27 million acre foot capacity. Total inflows for water year 2022: 2,642,661 acre feet. This is 57.85% of the May 11th average of 4,568,470 acre feet. In drought years, the lower basin receives its allocation first, resulting in a shortfall for the upper basin. Even so, Lake Mead has been drawn down 178 feet below full pool. It’s not just climate change at work here, folks. We divided up a 4 slice pie 7 ways. No amount of conservation will fix this. There may not be enough water to fill even one of these two reservoirs.

[vtsnowedin]

Old poorly written agreements be dammed, they will soon have to reallocate what water actually flows in as fairly as possible.
I would think that waste water from the coastal cities could be transported inland for treatment and reuse as irrigation water rather then discharging it to the sea. The level of treatment would of course be dependent on the crop being grown as I would not want even highly treated sewage water watering my carrots or lettuce. Nut trees and feed for livestock could use it and reserve the cleanest water for truck garden crops.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'O')ld poorly written agreements be dammed, they will soon have to reallocate what water actually flows in as fairly as possible.
I would think that waste water from the coastal cities could be transported inland for treatment and reuse as irrigation water rather then discharging it to the sea. The level of treatment would of course be dependent on the crop being grown as I would not want even highly treated sewage water watering my carrots or lettuce. Nut trees and feed for livestock could use it and reserve the cleanest water for truck garden crops.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'O')ld poorly written agreements be dammed, they will soon have to reallocate what water actually flows in as fairly as possible.
I would think that waste water from the coastal cities could be transported inland for treatment and reuse as irrigation water rather then discharging it to the sea. The level of treatment would of course be dependent on the crop being grown as I would not want even highly treated sewage water watering my carrots or lettuce. Nut trees and feed for livestock could use it and reserve the cleanest water for truck garden crops.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'O')ld poorly written agreements be dammed, they will soon have to reallocate what water actually flows in as fairly as possible.
I would think that waste water from the coastal cities could be transported inland for treatment and reuse as irrigation water rather then discharging it to the sea. The level of treatment would of course be dependent on the crop being grown as I would not want even highly treated sewage water watering my carrots or lettuce. Nut trees and feed for livestock could use it and reserve the cleanest water for truck garden crops.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'O')ld poorly written agreements be dammed, they will soon have to reallocate what water actually flows in as fairly as possible.
I would think that waste water from the coastal cities could be transported inland for treatment and reuse as irrigation water rather then discharging it to the sea. The level of treatment would of course be dependent on the crop being grown as I would not want even highly treated sewage water watering my carrots or lettuce. Nut trees and feed for livestock could use it and reserve the cleanest water for truck garden crops.

[evilgenius]

I don't think we need to consider going nuclear to do desalinization. We can do that with the sun. And, you know, as long as we can sell any excess we don't need to desalinate, it should incentivize enough excess capacity as to handle any emergencies.

Los Angeles, especially, could benefit from such a situation. You know, there is a huge desert on the other side of the mountain range that borders LA? It would only take transmissions lines enough from a solar floor there to power desalinization.

I mean, especially if what is really going on is that power is actually being put locally into the grid. Then, it can be taken out on the LA side, of that same grid. The infrastructure can run commensurate with the grid idea.

You don't have to run special lines, if that is impractical. I don't know how far you can finagle with the distance thing, but probably that far? Maybe it takes substations that pump the power back up? Those could also be solar. Maybe even more spread out than we might think, if it does work as a grid?

It could almost be invisible to most people's eyes. The desert would certainly be changed. Around LA, they might be busy looking for places to store fresh water? It wouldn't matter that solar only works when the sun shines because the excess demand brought about by desalinization can be met only when the sun shines.

There could be room for batteries, if the arbitrage between day and night rates was sufficient. Going that way might create the most efficient grid?

It all depends upon what goes on in the desert, or any place closer that has room for panels. It's just that it's better to replace desert than farm land, in most cases.

With Lake Mead down so low, they are curtailing some of what goes to Arizona. This is exchanging farm land for desert land. You can look upon sacrificing the California desert as a necessary exchange.

Longer term it is not actually going to harm the locale that much. You would think that solar panels, of all things, might be something you could eventually take away and the land would return to nature pretty fast?

I don't know how many people you would always need to keep them maintained? That number could be enough that permanent places for those people got built in the desert. It would be harder to just get rid of them. It could definitely be that robotics, automating much of the upkeep, could serve to alleviate that potential impact!

[Newfie]

We have a hunting cabin without running water. We relied upon cisterns for flush water and bottled drinking cooking water. Last year we out in an Incinolet incinerating toilet eliminating the black water use. This made a huge difference in how we appreciate the cabin. Our water consumption has dropped tremendously, we no longer have to worry about bears tipping or weather freezing the cisterns.

I have become a big fan of this type toilet.

I would love to see an energy cost comparison between using an incinerating toilet and using desalinated water to flush your poo and then treat the water. I truly don’t know how it would turn out. But would be interesting.

[vtsnowedin]

Those incinerating toilets work well enough for a single family or a remote location but would not work in say an apartment house or office building.
Way back when I was knee high to a grasshopper I saw a design for a solar desalination plant. It consisted of long trenches or concrete troughs built on the level about six feet wide with a plastic dome cap over them enough wider to set on a foundation wall that had a small trough along each side. Sunlight coming in evaporated the sea water in the center trench which condensed on the under side of the plastic dome tunnel and ran down and collected in the smaller side trenches. I don't know how many gallons per acre of dome you could get in a desert situation but other then pumping the sea water in and the fresh water out the other end it was energy free. Aren't there some pretty dry desert areas on the west side of the mountains around San Diego?

[Newfie]

Passive desalination is a good idea. Many years ago I read of putting plastic sheeting over reservoirs to reduce evaporation. Small personal solar desalination kits were used in lifeboats and by some cruisers.

Cali has lots of water conservation measures, it is common to see signs about watering with "recycled water only". Yet some of the driest states have some of the lowest water rates. Makes no sense.

MIT (I think) has made a lot of noise about a low pressure, low power desalination method. Lots of wild speculation over about a cup of produced product. May be grand maybe not.

Incinerator toilets installations are identical to a cloths dryer install. And the smell better also. Why do you think they would be a problem in more dense settings?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'T')hose incinerating toilets work well enough for a single family or a remote location but would not work in say an apartment house or office building.
Way back when I was knee high to a grasshopper I saw a design for a solar desalination plant. It consisted of long trenches or concrete troughs built on the level about six feet wide with a plastic dome cap over them enough wider to set on a foundation wall that had a small trough along each side. Sunlight coming in evaporated the sea water in the center trench which condensed on the under side of the plastic dome tunnel and ran down and collected in the smaller side trenches. I don't know how many gallons per acre of dome you could get in a desert situation but other then pumping the sea water in and the fresh water out the other end it was energy free. Aren't there some pretty dry desert areas on the west side of the mountains around San Diego?