[eclipse]

Also a very important point Toe-Cutter. However, we will not know which ones can really come down in price until we start to actually scale them up... and I understand some alternatives might bring on their own resource issues. (Peak Lithium anyone? How far through the "cheap" Lithium are we, and how fast can production be scaled up to meet the increased world demand for EV's after peak oil?)

But this is not the Lithium thread — I was just both agreeing with you on production volumes, but also highlighting that there can be some limits. When a technology such as KiteGen or Solar chimney's are concerned, which are based mainly on concrete and steel, I am more bullish and positive.

Bring it on!

[Kez]

I don't see how such a system could work. It reminds me of the people that think because a magnet pulls something towards it, then it can be used to do something. Well guess what, the magnet pulls it backwards too once it is past the magnet.

Same with the kite. Once the kite blows with the wind, say North, and turns the big wheel so that the cord is pointed North, exactly what force is going to continue to turn the wheel even though the kite is pulling due North? It seems any energy created by the kite in the first place will be lost by the carousel trying to pull the kite back, or reel it in, or control it, etc.

[eclipse]

Can you please study a proposal before trying to tear it to shreds? That would be really helpful.

the PDF and online movie demonstration of the kite looping in a controlled manner show how all this would work. Please study the concept a bit more before assuming you understand it.

[Kez]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', 'C')an you please study a proposal before trying to tear it to shreds? That would be really helpful.

the PDF and online movie demonstration of the kite looping in a controlled manner show how all this would work. Please study the concept a bit more before assuming you understand it.

[eclipse]

They have sensors on each kite and the ability to move it out of the way of incoming aircraft, from memory the arms can move. The kite loops in big circles on the video. It seems a combination of the looping circular swoops of the kite (it is NOT "still") and the movement of the actual "carousell" arms have modelled a system that can use the prevailing winds.

The prevailing direction of the winds should only push sailboats in one direction, but we use the force of the water to tak in another. It seems that they have an integrated sensor and computer swooping movement software system and arms directional system that uses the swooping motion of the kite to redirect it in what eventually becomes a full 360 degree pulling motion around the entire merry-go-round. This is not like flying your regular childhood kit limited to a 50 to 100 meter string. This beast is 1km up, and they use that length to angle the kite in the correct direction.

I guess the only way for someone to "get it" is to look at the Flash movie. They have a kite pulling from a central point in great swooping motions that eventually lead the kite in a full circle using a combination of the higher and lower winds. This has already been tested with their proprietary software from the back of a truck. Check out their movie here.
http://sequoiaonline.com/blogs/ARCHIVIOscelti/kite.swf

I admit that I want this thing to work. But I also admit some skepticism and want to see it built and working as well. However, I don't like the implication that this very basic objection has not been considered. From their English home page.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')The Project allows to imagine wind machines whose dimensions are not conditioned by structural and dynamical limits.

The KiteGen can compete with conventional electric production systems, including nuclear, both in terms of single plant power production and produced energy cost.

The objective of the Project is to develop, implement and test a completely new concept for electric energy production.

The energy source for the project is the high altitude wind of the troposphere.

The method of channelling this source makes use of arrays of large tethered kites whose movements are controlled electronically, by highly sophisticated sensors and proprietary software.

The kites are anchored to a revolving structure on a vertical axis, analogous to a giant merry-go-round, which conveys the energy thus generated to the alternators and turbines of a classical power-plant, incorporated within the structure itself.

The present project is the object of six years of previous research and development and five European patents.

The work needed to demonstrate the validity of the hypothesis and construct the actual prototypes is articulated in phases for a length of five years.
http://www.sequoiaonline.com/blogs/htm/progetto_eng.htm

[OZ_DOC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't see how such a system could work. It reminds me of the people that think because a magnet pulls something towards it, then it can be used to do something. Well guess what, the magnet pulls it backwards too once it is past the magnet.

Same with the kite. Once the kite blows with the wind, say North, and turns the big wheel so that the cord is pointed North, exactly what force is going to continue to turn the wheel even though the kite is pulling due North? It seems any energy created by the kite in the first place will be lost by the carousel trying to pull the kite back, or reel it in, or control it, etc.

[eclipse]

Leeward?

Do I detect a sailor? My only claim to sailing is practicing a gruff voice for international talk like a pirate day!

Glad to have some of your "wind".

So with a number of these arms each with their own kite, I take it that rigged up with sensors & some sort of directional pulley system, the majority of kites will be pulling in the correct direction to overcome the minority of kites that might be "coasting."

[OZ_DOC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', 'L')eeward?

Do I detect a sailor? My only claim to sailing is practicing a gruff voice for international talk like a pirate day!

Glad to have some of your "wind".

So with a number of these arms each with their own kite, I take it that rigged up with sensors & some sort of directional pulley system, the majority of kites will be pulling in the correct direction to overcome the minority of kites that might be "coasting."

[eclipse]

They've run this off the back of a truck for a while, so their software etc seems to work... and it's a km or 2 high, depending on the model. Otherwise, someone gets paid to be on call and put the kite/s back up if there's a failure. Better than a nuke failure!

[eclipse]

Problem for the southern hemisphere! This came up in another forum.....


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')i Dave
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')“Two ribbons of wind completely encircle the earth; the one situated in the southern hemisphere is at the latitude of Tierra del Fuego, and the other passes through Europe and the Northern United States.

“The altitude of this ribbon goes from 500 to 10,000 metres, and its breath from 4 to 5000 kilometres. The power of this wind section averages 2kW per square metre.”

[Kez]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OZ_DOC', 'K')ez if kites and other types of sails suffered from the problem youre talking about then you better go tell all the sailers and kite surfers out on the water that theyre not allowed to turn around and go the other way anymore because kez says sails can only pull one way.

In all seriousness the physics of the way a sail can push a boat (or power station wheel) in a direction that is not directly with the wind is incredibly complicated, so its not that unexpected that someone brought up this concern. Rest assured kites and sails are reasonably easily manipulated with control lines on the windward and leeward edges into allowing a direction of pull that covers around 270 degrees of the circle. There is a 90 degree ( 45 on either side of directly into the wind) area where a sail cant pull, but the vast majority of the circle the kites will create substantial pull.

[eclipse]

Understood. I'd love to see the thing built and engineers having lived with it for a while as well. I'm just sad that it looks like Australia misses out on this one. Oh well, we'll just have to settle for HDR Geothermal, Solar Chimney's, wind, tidal, current, OTEC, maybe some nuclear (seems inevitable even though I don't like it) and lots and lots of solar.

[OZ_DOC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kez', '
')Boats have no problem because they use water (which is 874 times as dense as air) and a rudder to control and harness the immense power of the wind, that is pushing the boat in a direction the boat does not want to go.

To go upwind a boat must zig zag several times. A boat in the water is vastly different than a slew of many kites hooked to the same device. It is easy to get one kite moving around, I have done it myself and it makes sense. What doesn't make sense is having several kites do this at the same time hooked to the same device which is somehow capturing the power, because to me it is clear that they are fighting against each other. There will be not one but several dead zones that will cause the machine to stall.

Just my 2 cents. I'm no expert, just taking from what I have observed and learned. When it is built and working somewhere, and isn't just some theory, then I will embrace it fully because I would love to see wind and solar power conquer. My brain just doesn't see how it will work, sorry.

[Beat]

Update! Kitegen at work!

http://sequoiaonline.com/blogs/media/sardegna1.mov

[Barbara]

I know personally Massimo Ippolito, the inventor. He's a big great nice man, and a member of ASPO Italy. His company builds very sophisticated computer systems for flight engines, and sells them to military of many countries I won't mention .
I absolutely trust his computer controlled Kitewind. If something can ever solve "the" problem, it's Kitewind. The whole ASPO Italy embraced the project.