[NEOPO]

Go Sarah Go

Compare a chart of human population from 1700 A.D. to the present to a chart of oil production along the same timeline.
Coincidence?
Genetic harmony?

I think not!!!!

Yeah - we get along as long as there is a promise of more.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SarahC1975', '
')
Highly cooperative at killing other dumb animals who are not members of our "tribe."

Sarah C.

[SarahC1975]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') question whether the increasingly violent, lying, cheating, raping group would successfully produce more offspring which live to reproductive age than the cooperative group. This seems unlikely to me.

[Jack]

All of this talk of genetics seems to be akin to sophism.

Consider:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')THACA, N.Y. -- Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestor, and even today 99 percent of the two species' DNA is identical. But since the paths of man and chimp diverged 5 million years ago, that one percent of genetic difference appears to have changed humans in an unexpected way: It could have made people more prone to cancer.

[SarahC1975]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SarahC1975', '
')
Highly cooperative at killing other dumb animals who are not members of our "tribe."

Sarah C.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'A')ll of this talk of genetics seems to be akin to sophism.

Consider:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')THACA, N.Y. -- Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestor, and even today 99 percent of the two species' DNA is identical..

[SarahC1975]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'A')ll of this talk of genetics seems to be akin to sophism.

Consider:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')THACA, N.Y. -- Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestor, and even today 99 percent of the two species' DNA is identical. But since the paths of man and chimp diverged 5 million years ago, that one percent of genetic difference appears to have changed humans in an unexpected way: It could have made people more prone to cancer.

[seldom_seen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SarahC1975', 'A')ll members of the White or European race raise their hand.

All Native Americans raise their hand.

Why the discrepancy? Because the Whites were the better killers. Not coincidentally, their descendents (that's us) are acting in a simliar fashion this very day.

Sad but true.

[EnergySpin]

Jack the discussions about genetic are not irrelevant because in his reasoning the predictions appear them as an inevitable conclusion of his genetic behavioural model.
It is only if the genetic model is correct that the conclusions are true (and inevitable).

If the genetic model is incorrect,then there is no guarantee that his conclusions/predictions will be verified or not because No reasonable conclusions can be drawn from a wrong model . A false statement implies all other statements (true or false).
If the model is wrong one is left reasoning about his own system of beliefs which existed before the model was created wich puts us back to square one: a thermonuclear fuckfest extravaganza is only of the possible outcomes but not the only one and various people give different degrees of possiblity to this outcome. I do not know ... but if one holds this statement to be 100% certain given a wrong model, then one is not defending it on the basis of reason but on the basis of faith.

Closing note: It is interesting that you used the epicycle example. This is a n example of totally wrong model; it is not like the relation of Newtonian mechanics to Quantum Physics where the former is an approximation to the later. I wonder what Freud would have said

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'C')losing note: It is interesting that you used the epicycle example. This is a n example of totally wrong model; it is not like the relation of Newtonian mechanics to Quantum Physics where the former is an approximation to the later.

[SarahC1975]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SarahC1975', 'A')ll members of the White or European race raise their hand.

All Native Americans raise their hand.

Why the discrepancy? Because the Whites were the better killers. Not coincidentally, their descendents (that's us) are acting in a simliar fashion this very day.

Sad but true.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'C')losing note: It is interesting that you used the epicycle example. This is a n example of totally wrong model; it is not like the relation of Newtonian mechanics to Quantum Physics where the former is an approximation to the later.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'J')ack I think you might be a cornocupian .....

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SarahC1975', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') question whether the increasingly violent, lying, cheating, raping group would successfully produce more offspring which live to reproductive age than the cooperative group. This seems unlikely to me.

[MacG]

Nobody has mentioned memetics here yet? The second replicator. Suggested by Dawkins already in -76. Susan Blackmore's "The Meme Machine" provide a good review of what has been done since then. The theory of memetics manage to explain quite a lot which genetics fail to explain. There are serious reasons to belive that human genes has been in the back seat the last 150 000-200 000 years, while the second replicator -memes- has been in the drivers seat.

[Ludi]

Nobody has mentioned it because we're busy arguing about genetics! But I agree with you McG, memes are as important as genes, in human societies. Certainly modern society promotes "me first!" memes over cooperative memes, even though these "me first!" memes probably won't be successful in the long run. Without a massive infrastructure to support them, "me first!" individuals will have a hard time surviving unless they can learn to cooperate.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')ithout a massive infrastructure to support them, "me first!" individuals will have a hard time surviving unless they can learn to cooperate.

[EnergySpin]

I do have a problem digesting memetics which certain people might dismiss as nitpicking. The theory of memetics is a theoretical tool devised by Dawkins along the lines of Mendelian genetics . Mendel Hypothesized that genes exist (no one knew about DNA) as hidden variables in statistical models that described his plant breeding experiments .
It took 50-60 years before they were given a physical basis (i.e. the work of Avery in the pneumoniococcus in the 40s).
The problem with memes is that by definition no such straightforward physical basis seems to exist. Hence at best "memes" have an epistemological and not an ontological basis i.e. they allow us to think about the natural world but do not exist in the real world (which is different than genes sicne they do have both these aspects).

This is not to be interpreted as an attack against the persistence or the influence of cultural norms over genes in certain circumstances. In fact I can think of at least one cultural practise that is manifesting it self with 100% certainty in succesive generations i.e. circumcision in Jews and certain other religious groups. There are other genes (genetic hemochromatosis for example) which even if present do not necessarily lead to the disease (the technical term is incomplete penetrance).
If one were to follow a naive genetic determinism (ala JH) he or she would have to conclude that genes harbour a gene that creates the behaviour of male circumcision whereas genetic hemochromatosis would be given a genetic or a non-genetic basis.
As it stands ... solutions to the equation gene+environment = behaviour
will be probably never be obtained in a clear form. We are complex systems, interacting in a complex world. It is foolish to assume that one could reduce everything to a small set of guiding principles. At the very best he or she can only arrive to heuristics . But heuristics and other approximative methods are only valid in a small domain. Walk out of the domain and you are saying non-sense

[EdF]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bart', '.')..
The logical fallacy is claiming that the behavior of bacteria in a laboratory setting is comparable to human behavior. This error is called "reasoning by analogy" and is not much different than magical thinking.
...

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')ithout a massive infrastructure to support them, "me first!" individuals will have a hard time surviving unless they can learn to cooperate.