[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chicken_Little', 'I')'m sure it'll be a great comfort to us as we huddle over our bowls of Soylent Yellow to know that space tourists are flying overhead.

[TWilliam]

You know the funny thing about people among the general populace who cheerlead for space colonization? Even if we succeed, what makes you think that the great unwashed masses --those selfsame masses that are directly responsible for our need to move offplanet in the first place-- are going to be invited along?

[Graeme]

With all due respect, Heineken, the gloomy predictions of the future are not inevitable. We've had people throughout history who believed that the world was going to end. It never did. The future is determined by our collective efforts. There are a lot of injustices in the world. One fights for them on an individual basis daily. This Peak Oil group should be fighting for a better future. Instead many here a giving up as we face the enormous challenge of depleting oil reserves and environmental degradation. This doesn't mean that all is lost. I didn't say "belief in a population crash is decadent". I said the attitude towards this belief (your words) is decadent and defeatist. A population crash is not inevitable. This is an extreme view. Some argue that the world population will CREST (not crash) about the middle of this century before gradually declining. "Peaksters" must advocate the following"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'n')ew employment and economic enterprises, a healthier lifestyle, more neighborly communities, less environmental pollution, posterity for future generations. They must devise a message of hope and inclusion embodied in a clarion call for action in confronting the biggest challenge humanity has faced in its short history on Earth.

[Graeme]

Here is another announcement about the NASA space program:

NASA looks beyond shuttle with Mars-bound capsule

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Discovery shuttle is due to take off Saturday in one of the 16 final missions to the International Space Station (ISS) for the 25-year-old fleet before its 2010 retirement amid ongoing concerns over its safety.

NASA will replace the shuttle, which was not designed for use beyond low Earth orbit, with the Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV) to take astronauts back to the Moon by 2018 and eventually to Mars.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chicken_Little', '
')I'm sure it'll be a great comfort to us as we huddle over our bowls of Soylent Yellow to know that space tourists are flying overhead.

[Graeme]

Omnitir, Thanks. I enjoy your posts.

Heineken, I just found some controversial evidence of the cause of a great dieoff some 250 million years ago when 90% of all terrestrial animal life was wiped off the face of the Earth. A geologist from Ohio State University thinks this was caused by a 30-mile wide meteor which hit the Earth and formed a 300-mile crater in Antarctica. The evidence at the moment is geophysical but the presence of the crater could be confirmed with ground surveys.

seedmagazine

Now that's what I call a dieoff!

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'W')ith all due respect, Heineken, the gloomy predictions of the future are not inevitable. We've had people throughout history who believed that the world was going to end. It never did. The future is determined by our collective efforts. There are a lot of injustices in the world. One fights for them on an individual basis daily. This Peak Oil group should be fighting for a better future. Instead many here a giving up as we face the enormous challenge of depleting oil reserves and environmental degradation. . . . A population crash is not inevitable. This is an extreme view. Some argue that the world population will CREST (not crash) about the middle of this century before gradually declining.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Elan_Rasa', '.')..what was my original point?

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '.')..world population cannot simply "crest" and then hang there indefinitely or gently decline, because the resource base will have been too badly drained and poisoned; this is really the crux of the whole argument. PO will of course only accelerate and steepen the population crash. We can't indefinitely maintain the current population, much less the 9 billion that we may, if we're "lucky," reach by 2050...

[Heineken]

Also, nature has shown over and over again that overshot populations tend to fall precipitously, not gradually. That's what happens with butterflies and ungulates---why not humans? Unless, of course, you believe in techno-miracles or the magical exclusion of people from the power of natural laws.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')4. Living in a nice place like New Zealand may distort one's Weltanschauung. I wonder if you've feel as optimistic about the demographic future if you lived in Nigeria or Pakistan.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')4. Living in a nice place like New Zealand may distort one's Weltanschauung. I wonder if you've feel as optimistic about the demographic future if you lived in Nigeria or Pakistan.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '.')..there's no substitute for the energy in crude oil that we've converted to food energy...

[DefiledEngine]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Are you saying there is no substitute for the energy we get from oil? Because that is obviously wrong, there are dozens of substitutes.

[Heineken]

There are substitutes for oil in many cases, but they tend to cost much more and may simply not be scaleable to current giant consumption patterns.

The end of cheap oil will force massive changes that even the most pessimistic among us can't fully imagine.

[Graeme]

FF utilization is not going to end tomorrow. We will be using them for decades to come. Yes oil then gas and hopefully coal consumption will decline but this will be offset by increasing use of alternatives. Scaling up of alternatives will take time, which we have plenty of. The costs of alternatives have been coming down, and the investment in these has been going up. You are focusing on only one side of this energy transition.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', ' ')Scaling up of alternatives will take time, which we have plenty of.

[Graeme]

To some extent, I agree with you. If everybody cooperated over the use of energy resources, we could make the transition easily. But there is a very real potential for conflict over the reamining petroleum and gas resources which is going to test the diplomatic skills of the major powers to the limit.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'd')iplomatic skills

[Heineken]

Yeah; if our survival depends on diplomacy, I'm gloomier than ever about our prospects.