[Bioman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', ' ')seems to me people on these boards want to shoot down anything that contradicts or threatens to offset PO

[OnceFueled]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', '
')In short, Peak Oil will occur somewhere around 2040, by then we have next generation biofuels and the era of plenty can finally begin.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', ' ')seems to me people on these boards want to shoot down anything that contradicts or threatens to offset PO

[Windmills]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kolm', 'O')nce, there was a techno-fix proposed for overshoot, when ressources of food were dwindling due to climate change. It was called 'agriculture', a dangerous, poorly understood new technology relying on experimental genetical selection, grain placement control, soil optimization by vertical shifting, constant screening processes and artificial watering; later on, soil enrichment with animal feces (!) was added. A pure-bred, evil-as-it-gets techno-fix. Of course, this was short--sighted, never worked out and only made things worse in the long run, just as prophezised. Earth was never designed for more than 250 000 people.

[Bioman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', ' ')seems to me people on these boards want to shoot down anything that contradicts or threatens to offset PO

[Windmills]

Carrying capacity is a fantasy? That's awesome! I'm in the wrong business, then. I need to get into raising some free-range cows. Since there's no such thing as carrying capacity, I can obviously raise an infinite amount of cattle on my open range. And with an infinite supply of humans on the planet to buy them, I could make an infinite amount of money on my infinite cows. And I could probably do this in my back yard, since there's no such thing as carrying capacity. Or is just humans that have transcended carrying capacities? Vader would tell the cows "you are not a Jedi yet, so you still have a carrying capacity." On the other hand, Yoda would tell us, "luminous beings are we. Food, space, water, finite non-renewable resources...we need not these things...transcended have we above the natural world, into the supernatural."

There are a number of concepts in science that can be difficult to quantify because of various factors, sheer quantity of input variables, lack of computational power, uncertainty principles. That doesn't rule out their obvious existence. There's a certain amount of uncertainty in the extact measurement of, well, just about everything actually, but let's take Mount Everest. Does a little uncertainty in it's height mean it doesn't exist? Of course not, at least to perhaps everyone but you. I think it's you that's in fantasy land.

I can appreciate some of what you say. You just need to stop couching it in so much hyperbole. Not every word needs an adjective like "giga-hyper-super-duper." You might also not want to equate the words "may have application in..." with "guaranteed salvation!" There really is a difference! Check into it!

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', ' ')Apparently I have read more about the population dynamics and demographic projections than you and most others in here who keep pushing this hilarious idea of "overshoot".

[Bioman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I') asked you why it is?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy is the birth rate declining towards zero by 2050?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'W')hy is the birth rate declining towards zero by 2050?

[Judgie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', '
')t doesn't take into account that humans have large brains and that they're capable of problem solving.

[Bioman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'W')hy is the birth rate declining towards zero by 2050?

[Bioman]

By the way, Montequest, may I ask you a question.

Suppose you have two scenarios to choose from (you must take them as described, no matter whether they're realistic or not):

1. to think, invest, study, research and build the future in such a way that we can feed, clothe, and house 9 billion people and give them some luxury and joy; with the added fact that as we move on, we become ever more sustainable in the way we provide these goods and services.

2. to do nothing and to wait until 7 billion people start to butcher each other, because they suddenly gave up their Human Essence, which is that of problem solving. (I agree that butchering each other is a problem solving strategy, but let's leave this out of account for a sec).

Which scenario do you prefer?

Some dark minds on this forum consciously prefer the latter. Dark, doomerish, nihilists. A lot of the discussion about "carrying capacity" , Peak Oil and Peak Everything Else, has to do with psychology and with mentalities. The solutions to these crises too, by the way. Just trying to get at your psychology here.
There are people who desire death and destruction. There are quite a few people with a subconscious death wish. Are you one of them?

[Rogozhin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut see, this is where you go wrong.

-You present people's need as static
-You present demand for resources as static
-You present access and availability of resources themselves as static (theoretically they aren't, man mines the Moon and beyond)

This is why the entire Peak Oil story is a myth.

This is not a static world. This is a dynamic world.

Europeans are eating less meat per capita. Best example.

[killJOY]

pipe dream

[Rogozhin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')y the way, Montequest, may I ask you a question.

Suppose you have two scenarios to choose from (you must take them as described, no matter whether they're realistic or not):

1. to think, invest, study, research and build the future in such a way that we can feed, clothe, and house 9 billion people and give them some luxury and joy; with the added fact that as we move on, we become ever more sustainable in the way we provide these goods and services.

2. to do nothing and to wait until 7 billion people start to butcher each other, because they suddenly gave up their Human Essence, which is that of problem solving. (I agree that butchering each other is a problem solving strategy, but let's leave this out of account for a sec).

Which scenario do you prefer?

Some dark minds on this forum consciously prefer the latter. Dark, doomerish, nihilists. A lot of the discussion about "carrying capacity" , Peak Oil and Peak Everything Else, has to do with psychology and with mentalities. The solutions to these crises too, by the way. Just trying to get at your psychology here.
There are people who desire death and destruction. There are quite a few people with a subconscious death wish. Are you one of them?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', ' ') Just trying to get at your psychology here.

[OZ_DOC]

what frustrates me most about these threads is the polarity, why must we constantly argue powerdown/overshoot vs techno fixes. It seems so simplistic and purile to me. I think any sensible person can come to the conclusion that a combination of things will be needed to move forwards. On these forums my views would probably be derided as technocornucopian but in truth i absolutely feel we have overshot, i absolutely feel we need population declines and i absolutely feel we need to powerdown to probably on the order of 20-40% of current consumption per capita (remember this is in addition to population declines on the order of 50% to 3 billion or so) which would result in a net nergy consumption stable at around 10-20% of current levels.

NOW, having said that, my techno side comes in, i think that biofuels and solar and wind and hydro and wave and tidal and geothermic are all components that will be massive contributors to our energy supply once at levels around 10-20% of current. Currently around 6% of total US Energy comes from renewables, with a significant population ddecrease and significant powerdown to around 20% of current levels then that contribution becomes enormous.

[Heineken]

Our salvation! . . . two blue condoms.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OZ_DOC', 'w')hat frustrates me most about these threads is the polarity, why must we constantly argue powerdown/overshoot vs techno fixes. It seems so simplistic and purile to me. I think any sensible person can come to the conclusion that a combination of things will be needed to move forwards.

[Heineken]

Technology has produced the disaster we have. More technology will not alter this tendency, because it will continue to be invented and wielded by the same criminal species.