[LoneSnark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erhaps what he was really asking was whether the rich neighbors who got rich out of luck and not hard work or innovation gives him any justification for gouging them on whatever products or services he is offering to them?

I say charge whatever you think your products and services are worth and what you think someone will pay.

[mmasters]

I've come to believe trying to help people that cause their own problems is not benevolent at all. It's up to the individual to discover the prediciment he is in and move himself above it. You can provide the door for people but they must ultimately walk through it. I believe we are all here for a reason and that reason is to evolve our soul and ultimately rise above this crude existance. Like the saying "Ignorance is bliss...until it kills you!" Furthermore, it's like that movie groundhog day where you just keep coming back over and over until you learn the lesson!

[phaster]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'I')'ve come to believe trying to help people that cause their own problems is not benevolent at all. It's up to the individual to discover the prediciment he is in and move himself above it. You can provide the door for people but they must ultimately walk through it. I believe we are all here for a reason and that reason is to evolve our soul and ultimately rise above this crude existance. Like the saying "Ignorance is bliss...until it kills you!" Furthermore, it's like that movie groundhog day where you just keep coming back over and over until you learn the lesson!

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', '
')so does this mean those of us who understand the problem that its a bad idea to waste natural resources by not trying to use them in the most efficent manner, and are "thriving" in the current economy, have been reincarnated? wow I never knew....

[basil_hayden]

Is it moral to be fortunate?

[dohboi]

Wow, not a question I would expect from one of our sharpest analysts, just because I haven't seen him go in for this kind of speculation before.

It is hard enough to figure out one's own moral dilemmas, and essentially impossible to figure out another's, especially from a distance.

Though I am generally kind to my fellow humans, perhaps out of habit, I have come to the conclusion that deep morality has little to do with how you treat other humans and more with how humans as a whole are treating the rest of life, which isn't very well.

Thriving by itself seems morally neutral: like throwing a punch, morality only comes in when you consider where it lands, who it impacts. As has been said, most of us materially thriving, or even just getting by are collectively doing irreparable and permanent harm to the living systems of the earth.

As mmasters noted, there are many ways to "thrive" that do not involve the consumption of mass quantities.

Near the beginning of the thread, people were falling all over each other to give the super-rich credit for their philanthropy. Many studies have shown that, in spite of well a few publicized exceptions, the richest as a class give the smallest percentage of their income to any kind of charity, and mostly they give to institutions that mostly benefit themselves--yachting clubs, exclusive schools, high-brow culture... A good book on this from a few years back was called (I believe) "Charity Begins At Home." The next-to-lowest classes, on the other hand, tend to give the highest percentage of their incomes to charities of various sorts.

Anyway, dante, whatever your final self evaluation, I do recommend adopting a mini-me. They are so cute and cuddly!

[gollum]

Is it especially moral not to? Would it be moral to watch the wife and kids starve beause others also starve? Perhaps the question should have been is it moral to survive at the expense of others?

[MrBill]

Drew, I am not out to fleece anyone. I am not by nature a jealous person nor am I motivated by money. The original question was deliberately vague because I did not want to influence the debate.

My other post that you refer to is one of tactics. If someone is rich and dumb, and another person is poor and smart then is it wrong for the clever one to make money off the stupidity of the other?

If someone wants to invest $100 million in a yatch; $1 million in a sportscar; or $100.000 on a luxury watch then who am I to tell them otherwise? And if they do and someday find themselves poorer for their decisions - or perhaps their children or grandchildren - is it any sweat off my balls?

I pity the rich and the beautiful wanna bes 'that need stuff' to feel good about themselves or better than others. It is kind of sad and pathetic actually.

As a trader it is my duty to make money by taking it off someone else. I buy, they sell. Its not my job to try to disuade them from selling because I have good arguments why I think the price is likely to go higher.

Even in my own family my father was a maternal twin. Within one generation there were huge differences in lifestyle outcomes. Now within the third generation we are literally talking about the haves and the have nots. And that was in no means engineered by the haves not offering to help at some critical points along the way, but by the others continuously making poor lifestyle decisions to their own detriment.

I think it would be morally wrong to be a war profiteer or hoard scarce resources in expectation of making a outsized profit. However, I do not think that investing wisely in expectation of future risk and uncertainty is wrong even if the outcome may be that in times of turmoil my family may be able to buy goods and services - or even basic luxuries - that others will struggle to afford.

[Newfie]

Mr. Bill,

I think we are all inherently selfish, it is only that some us have more self knowledge. For the ultra rich, spending huge sums on yachts and the like, may be a necessary evil to retain their position in the social class. Much like a peacock spends extravagant energy to grow his plume.

For the ultra "ethical do gooders" they may be living down a guilt or some other childhood trauma. Recently I recall reading an essay on ethics contrasting Bill Gates with Mother Thressa and trying to determine who was more ethical. Somewhat interesting and on topic. I'll try to source it and post.

I guess this whole discussion is one of a certain arrogance for only the (relatively) rich and/or fortunate have a choice in the matter. Ethics is more simple when you are starving.

By all accounts, after a certain modest level income, money counts for little in life satisfaction and happiness. God forbid that my daughter should ever follow the path of Britney or Paris or Michael or......

Back more to your original post, if we ever really do get to a situation where we have a fairly massive die off in the world then it will become a question of "my genes" or "your genes." I think that 99%+ of the time "your genes" will be history if "my genes" have anything to say about it.

Life, by definition, is about propagating your own gene line. Evolution is about propagating the best gene line. Anything else is playing God.

Again, thanks for the topic.

[MrBill]

There has been some good research lately on genes and selfishness. There seems to be a case to be made that our genes are programmed to a certain extent to allow cooperation and even altruism to the extent that they are mutually beneficial and increase the chances of both organism's survival.

Another good article recently looked at organized violent conflict. Influential studies dating back to 1974 indicate that across cultural and ethnic lines that under the right circumstances fully 80-percent of society will support organized violence. Only ten percent would not support it. And a further ten percent would actively fight against it.

We are clearly violent by nature. Most of our attempts at organization of the community, including the use of religion, are based around developing rules of engagement that allow non-relatives to live together in some sort of peaceful manner. Again this is to maximize the chances of mutual survival from external threats or internal conflicts.

As for wealth, I find it very interesting to see what the niveau riche spend it on. Usually conspicuous consumption. Those that have earned it quickly - legitimately or not - usually cannot appreciate it. But that is more likely my own reference point and not some sort of universal value. We all see life through our own values, experiences, filters and blinders that can evolve over time.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'T')here has been some good research lately on genes and selfishness. There seems to be a case to be made that our genes are programmed to a certain extent to allow cooperation and even altruism to the extent that they are mutually beneficial and increase the chances of both organism's survival.

[MrBill]

BigTex wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ave you heard Abraham Lincoln's comments about helping others as a type of selfishness? Simple, but insightful.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'B')igTex wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ave you heard Abraham Lincoln's comments about helping others as a type of selfishness? Simple, but insightful.

[Heineken]

Bill, we're destroying an entire planet, and you ask if it's moral for you to survive?

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen a lawyer on the circuit, be dismounted from his horse and rescued a pig that was stuck in the mud. This spoiled a suit of clothes, because he had to lift the pig in his arms. His explanation was that he could not bear to think of that animal in suffering, and so he did it simply for his own peace of mind.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'B')ill, we're destroying an entire planet, and you ask if it's moral for you to survive?

[manu]

Wow, Mr. Bill with conscience. There is a difference between survival and ripping people off. I would suggest reading Bhagavad Gita for the answers to your question.

[MrBill]

I prefer Budhist to Hindu custom. The Caste System may be an efficient division of labor by eliminating competition between castes, but I find it wholly unacceptable that some are born into lower castes and cannot progress 'in this life'!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t should be noted, however, that Krishna does not propose that the physical world must be forgotten or neglected. Indeed, it is quite the opposite: one's life on earth must be lived in accordance with greater laws and truths, one must embrace one's temporal duties whilst remaining mindful of a more timeless reality, acting for the sake of action without consideration for the results thereof. Such a life would naturally lead towards stability, happiness and ultimately, enlightenment.

[Heineken]

My question was rhetorical, Bill. It was intended to note the irony of yours.

Personally, I think your question is unanswerable. I attempted one but threw it out.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'M')y question was rhetorical, Bill. It was intended to note the irony of yours.

Personally, I think your question is unanswerable. I attempted one but threw it out.