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How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 21:38:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') don't think Cuba is a very good test case actually, because they still get resources from outside their own system.


Right. The Cubans are still living a little too high on the hog to serve as a good model for powerdown. We need a country even poorer and more isolated than the Cubans to serve as a test case. How about North Korea?
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 21:47:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow about North Korea?


Oops. Looks like their powerdown didn't help the environment either.
North Korea's environment crisis

"The report says this is because of timber production, a doubling of firewood consumption, wild fires, insect attacks associated with drought, and conversion of forest to farmland."

Note the doubling of firewood consumption. If you ain't got any oil or gas for heating/cooking, no sweat. Just cut down a few trees. If you do it on the sly, you can reduce your energy bills substantially.
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Unread postby Ludi » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 21:54:11

I don't know if anyone is claiming that just any kind of powerdown would help the environment. Bad practices and ignorance aren't going to help anything.
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Unread postby Cyrus » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 21:56:06

Drought, peakoil, desertifcation...am i the only who thinks this is catastrophic! I mean...are we screwed or what?
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 21:58:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'B')ad practices and ignorance aren't going to help anything.


Is it bad practice and ignorance to cut down a tree when you are freezing and have no way to cook your rice?
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Unread postby Ludi » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 22:02:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s it bad practice and ignorance to cut down a tree when you are freezing and have no way to cook your rice?


With education and some planning, this need not be the case.

http://www.greenbeltmovement.org/
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Unread postby pup55 » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 22:23:54

cuba references:

http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/region/aid/a ... IFEXP.html

http://www.cubafoundation.org/CPF-EnergyStudy.htm

http://www.paho.org/English/SHA/prflCUB.htm#morbimortal


Cuba only lost 20% of their oil supply long-term.
This caused a 40% drop in GDP and a 30% decrease in fertility rate.
The rest of the population seems to be hanging in there.
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 22:31:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')ith education and some planning, this need not be the case.


So, are you proposing that people grow trees specifically for burning? That doesn't sound like a sustainable environmentally-friendly solution, especially in the context of a worldwide powerdown.
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Unread postby bart » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 23:17:39

Is it my imagination or have the goal posts just been moved?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'T')heir powerdown did not save the environment. ...Cuba is still growing -- at a rate of 2.6% (real, 2003). Industrial production growth was 2.4% (2003). So powerdown didn't stop growth either.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') don't think Cuba is a very good test case actually, because they still get resources from outside their own system.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'S')o they may have as much as they need to eat, even if they don't have as much as they want. That's a harsh distinction to have to make, IMO.

If I remember correctly, we are on the Peak Oil website which regularly predicts die-offs, an end to civilization and hand-to-hand combat over garden produce. The constant theme of many posters is that nothing can be done and that humans can never work together.

Here is a poor country that proves those assumptions wrong. The Cubans are not rich and they don't have the huge waistlines that we in the US do, but they are alive and going strong. They still have plenty of problems but they are on the way to solving them.

Come on guys, let's have a little intellectual honesty!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jato', 'G')reat! We can all become Communists! I'm sure that will go over well with the people of the United States!

Well, jato, if the present government does not seem to be capable of addressing the problem... When people are hungry, they will be open to many new ideas. Think of the 30s. Just about every country moved in the direction of government intervention.

FWIW, there are more choices available than US-style oligarchy or Cuban communism.

(Thanks for the link, EE. Great article!)
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Unread postby EnviroEngr » Tue 08 Mar 2005, 23:34:56

{you got it. any time; EE}
-------------------------------------------
| Whose reality is this anyway!? |
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(---------< Temet Nosce >---------)
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Unread postby Teclo » Tue 15 Mar 2005, 07:45:55

Just wanted to correct one thing - UK oil use is like I posted, 3 million a day

Regarding Cuba - I think its a fair comparison

The only outside help they get is, 50% of their oil from Venezuala, and food imports from the US
The oil imports don't count because my point was how little they survive on - not where it comes from. If we share oil around we too can survive on little oil

The food question and environmental questions are not unique to Cuba but effect all of us. Even the US is now a net food *importer*!

No, Cuba is a very good comparison

The point about them being communist is also irrelevant except in the minds of the indoctrinated. Since when am I suggesting a dictatorship?
There have been capitalist dictatorships before

I'm suggesting central planning that’s all, not dictatorship
Even then not full on communist style planning, just some measure of central control of resources

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