[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sushilydv', 'T')he Aborigines of Australia would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

Red Indians / Native Americans would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

The Africans are very unlikely to have started the Industrial Revolution.

These cultures were quite happy and content with their Rituals and Spiritual Practices.

[sushilydv]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')He is correct about industry and technology. They hurt more than they fix the planet, our nest.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'T')apping away at your keyboard telling us we should stop producing keyboards.

[sushilydv]

I never claimed that I am not a part of society that is destroying environment.

The title of my article says "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" and since I am a citizen of Industrial Society I get included automatically.

Computers are being used because they are being manufactured by Industrial Society.

No one was using computers in Hunter_Gatherer Society / Agrarian Society when they were not being manufactured.

Billions of people in this world are not using computers today, but this has not saved environment because billions of other people are using computers and thousands of other consumer goods [and services] whose production has destroyed biodiversity and ecosystems.
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Environment doesn't get saved if a few people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved if a few thousand people live a simple life......It doesn't get saved if a few million people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved even if a few billion people live a simple life [which is happening right now.....Out of 7 billion people roughly half, about 3.5 billion are already living a simple life in Asia, Africa and South America .......but this doesn't save the environment......because the rest 3.5 billion people all over the world are living a highly consumerist life which is enough to destroy all ecosystems.

The entire world has to live a simple life. In animal kingdom all animals lived a simple life.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society all people lived a simple life......In Agrarian Society almost all people lived a simple life.

In a non-industrial society simple living happens automatically....one does not have to make efforts to live a simple life. In a non-industrial society environment gets saved automatically....one does not have to make efforts to save environment.

An Industrial Society produces thousands of consumer goods in addition to food, clothing and shelter.....therefore simple living by entire society is impossible.......and saving environment is an impossibility.

There is no industrial society which limits its activity to just food, clothing, shelter and which does not produce consumer goods.
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There were two major switch-overs in human history.........Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage........And Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage.

Hunter_Gatherer Society was least destructive.......Agrarian Society was hundreds/ thousands times more destructive.......Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive.

The first switchover may very well be excused but not the second one.......When man switched over from Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage he was not aware of the small size of our planet and the limited resources it contained........But when man switched over from Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage it was sheer lunacy of people who started and promoted Industrial Activity all over the world despite having a fair knowledge of the small size of planet and the limited natural resources.

This planet is just 40,000 km in circumference.......It is very small......It can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society...... Not an Industrial Society.

Hunter_Gatherer Society destroyed environment only for food.......Agrarian Society destroyed environment primarily for food, clothing and shelter........That is the limit on this planet......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society which destroys environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Activity for production of "thousands of consumer goods and services" must stop immediately.


Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[Cloud9]

It looks like Bloomberg may have figured out courtesy of Sandy that there are some things that government and fiat cannot fix. One correctly placed solar flair at the far end of the x class and the game is up. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-1 ... -grid.html

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sushilydv', 'I') never claimed that I am not a part of society that is destroying environment.

The title of my article says "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" and since I am a citizen of Industrial Society I get included automatically.

Computers are being used because they are being manufactured by Industrial Society.

[sushilydv]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'I')t looks like Bloomberg may have figured out courtesy of Sandy that there are some things that government and fiat cannot fix. One correctly placed solar flair at the far end of the x class and the game is up. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-1 ... -grid.html

[sushilydv]

All problems of Industrial Society are unsolvable because Industrialization itself is the cause of problems.....Exponential increase in environmental destruction, incidence of cancer, obesity and war/ violence.......Industrialization is the cause of all these problems.

It is important to understand why millions of people are trying to solve all these problems when they can never be solved.

Here is the answer - Billions of people who are not producing food in Industrial Society have to be kept engaged in some work or activity....People would go crazy without work....Therefore unnecessary, meaningless, futile and destructive jobs and professions are created by Industrial Society to keep the Urban Population occupied.

In Hunter_Gatherer Society the entire population was engaged in searching for food.....In Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in producing food [hardly 1 - 2% of population was not producing food].

In Industrial Society 50% of world population is growing food for entire population.....The remaining 50% population is engaged in extra, destructive and unnecessary work....[In America only 5% of population is producing food, That is why America is the Mother of all unnecessary and destructive work in this world].

The population that does not produce food is engaged in Production and Marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services, Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex and All kinds of unnecessary research.

Millions of people are doing unnecessary, meaningless and futile research in Industrial Society in hundreds of fields.

Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to save Environment which is not possible because Industrial Activity itself is the cause of large scale environmental destruction.

Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Obesity which is impossible because Obesity is a result of Industrialization.....A result of the switch over from physical work to mental work and easy availability of billions of tonnes of ready-made food.

Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Cancer which is not possible because Industrialization itself is the cause of cancer.....Industrial Activity has contaminated air, water and soil with billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous carcinogens.

Millions of people in Industrial Society are working with Peace Organizations trying to make the world peaceful.....This is an impossibility because Military Industrial Complex is promoting war and violence by producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world.

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Hundreds of professions and millions of jobs have been created in the name of solving the problems of Industrial Society.

The solutions will of course never come because Industrialization itself is the cause of problems.

Millions of people are happy because they are getting jobs and salaries......Governments are happy because they can claim they are doing all they can to solve global problems.

Meanwhile the problems continue getting bigger and bigger day by day, moment by moment.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sushilydv', '&')quot;Our way of living cannot be compromised"

This is what a former President of America had said.....And this is what a majority of Americans believe too.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'E')verything's the same with you, you want people to get their fat assess off the computer & out toiling in the fields but shouldn't you be leading by example?

[Human]

I like this cutsie permie video: Toby Hemenway - How Permaculture Can Save Humanity and the Earth, but Not Civilization http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nLKHYHmPbo

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'B')ut toiling in the fields is thousands of times more destructive than the gentle hunter gatherers, dontcha know...

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Human', 'I') like this cutsie permie video: Toby Hemenway - How Permaculture Can Save Humanity and the Earth, but Not Civilization http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nLKHYHmPbo

[Quinny]

Ludi - how come you find all these great videos before me?

[Newfie]

I'm with Pops on this. (Great one liner bout wrikles )

If you can get over how special you are, stand outside yourself and the world and look back objectively.

There is this fairly even progression of evolution from amoeba to ape. Then their is a great leap forward? How do you explained that? Maybe, just maybe we are not all that different, but different enough that it made a huge impact.

(Aside....Maybe HUMANITY is Giais black swan event?)

We have an African Grey parrot. He talks, communicates clearly at times, reacts to emotions between us, gets jealous, angry, cuddly. We have cats, you can not convince me they don't have a sense of humor. For a summer we had the good fortune to be adopted by a beluga whale. He would visit every other day, tow boats around, get scratched, show off, make farty noises, and play, play, play. I've had parrots go into depression and mourning when their brother died.

I know not how the beasts of Walmart are superior to these critters in any way.

E.O. Wilson explained humanity best for me. We are mammals, intelligent to be sure, that learned the social power of ants and termites. That gave us a significant edge over our competitor hominids, who we exterminated. We have been trying to do the same to the rest of nature ever since.

Peace, out.

[sushilydv]

An Industrial Society cannot be Vegan or Vegetarian........Only a Non-Industrial Society can be Vegan or Vegetarian....Only a Non-Industrial Society can come close to being Vegan or Vegetarian.......Only a non-industrial society can save animals.

There can be no environmental solutions in an Industrial Society because Industrial Activity itself is the cause of environmental destruction.

Industrial Society kills animals for food......Industrial Society also kills wild animals in forests and fish in the oceans with Industrial Activity [on the land and in the sea].

Those who are not killing animals for food are still killing animals, directly or indirectly, for production and use of thousands of consumer goods and services.

A Vegan "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.

A Vegetarian "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.

If millions of people become vegan / vegetarian in Industrial Society it is not going to save animals.......Even if billions of people become vegan / vegetarian in Industrial Society it is not going to save animals......Even if the entire population becomes vegan / vegetarian in Industrial Society it is not going to save animals.

Industrial Society is killing Trillions of animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses.......Industrial Fishing is killing Trillions of Fish in the oceans......As long as Industrial Society exists all this killing will continue.

In Industrial Society animals are killed for food in Slaughter Houses and Wild Animals are killed when Forests are destroyed for production of thousands of consumer goods and services.

Even if killing of animals for food is totally stopped in Industrial Society [which is an impossibility of course] killing of animals will still continue because Trillions of Wild Animals in Forests are being killed by Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services......Trillions of Fish are being killed in the oceans due to movement of hundreds of thousands of Industrial Ships and discharge of trillions of tonnes of Industrial Waste into oceans......The oceans have turned warmer and acidic, there are oxygen-deprived dead zones in oceans.....All this has resulted in killing of corals and a large number of marine creatures.

Wild Animals in forests and Fish in the Oceans are being killed every moment by Energy Generation Industry, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Oil Drilling Industry, Oil Refining Industry, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.

Moreover we cannot save environment by saving only animals.....We have to save all biodiversity and ecosystems.....We have to save Animals, Trees, Air, water and Land.....We have to save Forests, Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Air/ Atmosphere, Fertile Soil, Underground Water.....everything......Which can only happen in a non-industrial society.......In the absence of Industrial Machines only limited destruction of environment was possible.

Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society were closest to being Vegan / Vegetarian because the number of animals they killed was very limited......There was no Industrial Activity, so killing of animals by Industrial Activity was absent.....And the number of animals they could kill for food was very limited, very small, millions of times less than animals killed by Industrial Society.

A Vegan "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.

A Vegetarian "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.


Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[Narz]

D- Please see teacher

[dbruning]

If I understand your point sushilydv, you're saying we need to cut down on vegetarianism and veganism right?
Just kidding. But the writing is a little painful to read.

He is right that we do an awful lot of killing to make our society work, or at least work as well as it can.

The problem I see is this: with a population of 7 billion....soon 8 billion....soon 9 billion....all expecting to be fed regularly and all wanting to live the lifestyle we have been blessed with in North America, how can we cut out our efficient killing/raping/plundering of natural resources and not have a truly epic famine take hold?

This is why I see the (soon?) upcoming energy crisis to be such a threat. We NEED that energy to do the harmful practices we do to keep as many people as possible alive. Which of course breeds more people, requiring more energy, which eventually simply won't be available. I see the recent glut of natural gas / fracking oil as a 2-edged sword. We need that energy...but that energy will simply help us make the situation worse as we're not smart enough as a group to use it to make things better.

On the plus side, eventually we'll give sushilydv's way a shot...as we won't have a choice in the matter.

It's all a question of timing.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dbruning', 'I')f I understand your point sushilydv, you're saying we need to cut down on vegetarianism and veganism right?
Just kidding. But the writing is a little painful to read.

[Newfie]

Don't want to get too deep into this morass but I do want to comment that, unfortunately, things DO have to be this way.

I understand that technically there may be an alternative path, but humans being humans have no ability to choose that alternative. While there may be rare contrary examples they are outliers to the path of human experience.

It seems that, for what ever reason, we have evolved to be as we are, to react quickly to emergent dangers and ignore, or be incapable of comprehending, future dangers. It is what we are, to be otherwise would be to change the leopards spots.

To put it another way....bubbles are always invisible to the masses....that is why they are bubbles.

Or another way, if Lucy let Charlie kick the ball she would not be Lucy. That was just Schultzes way of commenting on the human dilemma, I think.

I don't like it, but it is what I observe.