[EnviroEngr]

I need some enterprising and capable minds trained in medicine, metaphysics, science, spiritual/martial arts and logic/critical thinking to delve into a relatively new project that goes by the name Immunics.

Its founder-practitioners define it thusly:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Immunics is the conscious, immediate, and intentional control of the physiological and psychological aspects of your immune system and the use of your control to do methodical immunological actions that effect cure.

[MarkR]

I've only had a chance to take a brief look at their site - unfortunately, I don't have time to sit through several hours of their introductory videos, most of which are rather content deficient - they're just 'fluff' and 'marketing' with only a little actual demonstration of the techniques.

Chris's view that this is a cult is certainly interesting; they do use a number of powerful psychological techniques within their teachings - the same techniques that could be used by cults. I don't really want to dwell on this point, but I did note that you don't get to read their main teaching materials until you pay up (or explain why you can't).

Their introduction begins with you practicing a set of thoughts - and beliefs. Then suggesting a set of alternate thoughts that you could use. Basically, you think 'I'm healthy' or something similar, and you keep doing it, until you're natural belief is that it is true. This is then repeated, over and over again, with a variety of different beliefs.

This is a technique which has been formalised by psychologists and is technically known as 'cognitive behavioual therapy'. This is a powerful, and highly effective technique for treating certain mental health problems - in particular, it is effective in mild and moderate depression, and is a recommended treatment. It is at least as effective as anti-depressant drugs, and if continued has a better longer-term effect than a short course of drugs. When combined with anti-depressant drugs, the combination is more effective than either alone.

Another technique that seems to show itself, is what is formally termed 'neuro-linquistic programming (NLP)' which is a method of reprogramming communications, behaviours and the thoughts associated with them. By using the 'testing' relaxation position, it trains your body to relax and associate the immunics mantras with relaxation.

I'm not sure that there is very much basis to the belief that this may actually cure disease or significantly boost the immune system. There is certainly some evidence that psychological stress causes increased levels of stress hormones, raised blood pressure, etc. But little good evidence, that simply offering psychological treatment in the absence of demonstrable psychological disease is of benefit. There is some evidence in animals, that severe stress can impair immunity, but little good evidence in humans, in otherwise reasonable health.

There are a lot of tall claims in their videos (e.g. curing cancer) but little proof, nor discussion of what orthodox treatment had been given. There are a number of cancers that are curable, and even some cases of the nastiest ones (like lung) can be cured by conventional medicine. They claim a cure of Hepatitis B, a disease which is often life-long. But, this is a strange disease - sometimes the disease takes hold, and then after a few weeks or occasionally a couple of months and then just goes away leaving you immune to getting it again.

one thing to bear in mind is that there is a lot more to 'illness' (the symptoms, and disability) than just 'disease' (the biological abnormality). Some illnesses like chronic-fatigue, irritable bowel and fibromyalgia which aren't associated with a disease (that we know of). It is well known that psychological health has a huge bearing on physical ability in the presence of chronic (long-term) diseases such as arthritis, diabetes, heart disease. Some people have terrible disease yet seem to cope. I've seen people who enjoy life with lots of interests, despite being stuck in a wheel chair because their knees and hips are seized solid from arthrits. Yet some people just seem to give up if their arthritis has given them a sore finger.

The use of psychotherapies, such as those discussed above, is an accepted and growing part of conventional medicine because they can help reduce symptoms and the impact on life, even if they don't do anything to the underlying disease. If there is an, as yet unidentified, effect - then, it's there's double benefit.

Perhaps, modern medicine has been slightly slow to pick up on the value of these psychological techniques. Self-help teachers have been using techniques such as these for decades, and these techniques are the core of many of the techniques offered for smoking cessation, weight-loss, habit breaking and other courses. however, one thing I have noticed is that everyone packages their therapies in a different way - psychologists take a very clinical scientific stance, some self-help teachers take a humanistic stance ('feel the power inside youself'), other (including many religions) take a theological stance (feel the power of God).

In short, there are lots of ways of achieving the same goals. Yes, their might be a good scientific explanation of how to do something - but sometimes, you need a bit of real life in order to understand it. There are lots of books and materials with which you can teach yourself CBT. There are lots of self-help teachers, or 'life coaches' who can teach you their amalgamation of techniques. I'll mention Anthony Robbins, as I've been to his seminars and seen the techniques he uses, which are essentially the same techniques as I've described above (although I also noted him to give some bad advice, with some actively dangerous).

I think it's best for me to leave it up to the reader to find out what techniques best suit them.

[learning]

I am within weeks of completing my Internship as a Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner. After that I will sit for my national boards, and be certified, with full prescriptive authority to practice, in essence, as a psychiatrist -- with a more integrative methodology set. (Psychiatrists, unfortunately, have pretty much become locked into the medical model -- i.e. meds as first line approach in nearly every case -- in great part due to our third party payor system. But that is another topic entirely.) Anyway, I give you this information about myself as a preface only to let you know that my formal background is both medical and psychology/psychiatry.

I am afraid I find myself in the same situation as MarkR, in that I don't have time to delve deeply into the Immunix site right now. However, I would endorse Mark's reference to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy as being in many ways analogous to what is seen on the Immunix site -- at least at first glance. (One thing I would add is that CBT is VERY effective for anxiety disorders in particular -- not just depressive disorders.)

From personal experience and experience with many of my patients I can say that methods that integrate the mind-body-heart-spirit approach are often far more effective in treating both mental and physical illnesses and dysfunctions than just, say, pharmacological interventions, talk therapy only, prayer by itself, a good support system only.

I will reserve further comment until I have a chance to investigate the site more thoroughly. However, I do not dismiss it out of hand. There appears to be some truly legitimate 'stuff' there.

[EnviroEngr]

Thank you both very much.... exactly what I'm looking for.

Also, sent the link to this thread to Bayard -- will get him to participate if he can to shorten the research and development cycle here.

Explanations directly from him will make it easier to correctly formulate the next round of questions. If we get lost in 'question quagmire', evolving up the ladder of answers will be well nigh near to impossible. We don't have time for inverted or self-eating investigative processes here; we must have the ability to construct the right questions to get to answers and understandings that are a) applicable; b) implementable.

Bayard, if you see this, that means you're on notice.

[Mme_TooToo]

Howdy, Folks-

Want an update on my Adventures with Immunics?

What I can honestly tell y'all at this phase of the game is:

-There are useful elements to be found at that website. If you can ferret these out (there's a lot of well written, actionable stuff in there), you come away with prizes; noticeably improved insight into the immune system, much more calm and clear affect and possibly even demonstrably increased wellness. I am happy and grateful to report that I am enjoying all of these to an appreciable degree. Oh, yeah -- and I've had a lot of fun (for the most part; see warnings below) in the process.

-The majority of other folks "immuning" whom I have encountered (online chiefly) are sterling sorts, delightful and cogent individuals of high integrity with whom I'm delighted to try out this wacky-doodle, creative and (sometimes very) useful stuff. People with whom I'd consider myself privileged to do any number of fun, meaningful and constructive activities any day.

HOWEVER...

-Those useful elements (in my direct experience) have been shot full of... significantly _less_ than useful detractions, such as poor communication skills on the part of some of the leader/teachers (e.g. twisty word definition problems that were _not_ made clear to this newcomer, or were painfully made clear by sheer default; rules that the insiders know, but let one find out painfully the hard way, etc.). Look out!

-Attempting to clear up some siginifcantly obstructive misunderstandings, I got negatively profiled by a particular subgroup's moderator and moderator's buddies (who seem determined not to explore the possibility that they _could_ be harboring misapprehensions). I have yet to see anything like a workable conflict resolution process operating r.e this situation. But stay tuned, folks, this yet could pan out better (I hope, she says). I actually think the individual in question sincerely meant to do me a good turn (by individual's lights, anyways). Maybe this will be hilariously funny to us all someday, when (if) we ever learn to speak one another's lingo (you say potato, and I say potato...).

Sooo... this reviewer (I am just a bug) recommends:

Maybe avoid the immunics folks if you don't want to work HARD for the bene's you may manage to come away with. There could be some pain with this gain. Maybe first try something well proven as effective and possibly more "user friendly", like E.F.T. or Reiki, for example.

It's probably best to think twice before signing up, if you truly cannot abide gross misunderstandings that inevitably ensue when highly specialized, jargonized language is employed -- and seriously underexplained to the newcomer in live (online) communication. However, if this gets cleared up better...

Possibly avoid if you lack hide the thickness of large and sturdy velde beasts. Those not terribly emotionally robust probably ought not apply solo; consider doing so together with a buddy or two.

BUT...

Give it a whirl (what the heck) if you love a good, complex challenge in the process of exploring what could be a wonderful, pioneering piece of highly creative, potentially very effective and graciously accessible healing work in the company of intensely and genuinely dedicated folks. We're in tough times, folks; let's develop our powers of courage!
Do be aware that this _is_ a church (albeit probably not much like your Grandma's church), for which those in charge make no apologies (nor should they). And please remember it's also about your giving and serving, not just going in to get something.

Go ahead, if you already have martial arts-like skills of self reference and well developed witness consciousness; and (unlike this reviewer) know how to keep your damned mouth shut and your head down while learning the ropes. If you are Scots (like reviewer) and hold the motto, "Set a stout heart to a steep hillside" in reference to, "Remain steadfast through great challenge", you'll probably be fine and gain many riches. But if you tend to interpret that lovely old Scots setiment more as, "Hasten into blind, head-on confrontations with leaders of groups you've only just joined" -- then well, maybe not (hey, I warned ye!).

There it is, for now. Will keep you posted.

Any misrepresentations are entirely the responsibility of this author, who continues to always recommend that in this, as in all circumstances -- use your own perceptions, make your own observations and make up your own mind for yourself!

Cheerio,

Mme. TooToo

[Aenea]

This is a nice discussion thread going here with immunics.

In my personal exploration with immunics, I am finding it to have both great genius and also some unfortunate religious/leader overlay that I feel gets in the way of a clear and concise presentation to this wonderful little working system of connecting with one's immune system. I have had immunics work for me on several occasions and find myself constantly surprised that it actually works!

I think it is clear from different studies with psychoneuroimmunology, & studies of cancer patients being helped by creative visualization, that the bottom line is that an individual can participate in one's own healing and rejeuvination with the power of the mind and intention, and connecting with a source greater than oneself, whether that be god, the unified field, or the patheon of different religious deities, or pagan gods, it's up to you.

Immunics is sort of like joining Quantum Physics unified field theory, Depak Chopra's work, applied kinesiology ( a simple body feedback system),self-talk, and some this and that from different spiritual/metaphysical systems and you can perhaps add in a certain percentage just from the placebo effect.

Have any of you seen the research that Masaru Emoto ("Messages From Water") has done with photographing water crystals? Just a simple act of writing on a piece of paper and placing it on the water bottle effected more structual integrity in the crystallization pattern of the water drops photographed.

Now the downside of the immunics is that one of the founders uses the cure drive as his own personal microphone to exhort the participants to make immunics go world wide via connecting with celebrities or various VIP's. This gets quite old and it appears when he gets frustrated that he starts using the old guilt/ fear routines to further light a fire under the suscriber's to make immunics famous. Of course this is said to be for altruisic reasons, but it is relentless and has the definate feel of being for more promotional gain than serving humanity.

This is where I would love to see the basic bones of immunics lifted out of it's current organization and into one that doesn't carry so many overtones of a personality. I would even prefer it to get into a business model, at least where you can pay to learn it, and then leave and not have to deal with the culture of personality/philosophy/leader-type dynamics.

I can see why some have seen the cult tendencies, and there are a few. Especially what is commonly called in cult research as 'loading the language'. Which is about creating a groups own special little universe, with their own lingo and their own definitions. However, that being said, there is a fair amount of transparency in the group. And you can learn immunics and unsubscribe and make it your own.

Probably some of the more realistic sampling of immunics is on the cure show, a call in show they have recorded on the website to use for teaching and exploring the healing process, with various individuals using the practice of 'harmonic accessing' for information. You can see that some people have genuinely been helped, but not as much as they like to claim. There is a fair amount of exaggeration on the part of immunics.org as to how much and how seriously people have effected 'curing'. Yet to be fair- there are some serious disease reversals of people that have medical testing to back this up. But of those, I would say it is in the realm of under a couple dozen individuals. But even for a number of that size, it still makes immunics worth the study and practice. However, it appears that of the more serious disease reversals claimed by using immunics- there seem to be only about 5 people who are still actively involved with the group. It makes you wonder why if someone has cured themselves of cancer being on their deathbed, why they would not take the time to mentor others who have cancer toward their healing. Same with the Hepatitus B person, where are they now?

Although there is a history of alternative medicines such as Chinese traditional medicine, Aryuveda, Tibetan Medicines that are thousands of years old- I don't know of any ancient system that uses the practice of self-healing that is non-physically based. So the development of this for the masses is definately a new progression, and it seems to me to one of a highly subjective nature. Perhaps this has been more of a field that has been explored by yogis and monks in the past.

I have also used LFT and it did work for seasickness. Of the 2 modalities, I have found immunics to be personally more effective for illness.

Thank you for having this discussion in a more unbiased forum. I would like to continue to explore immunics with people that are in a more neutal atmosphere like this.

Aenea

[EnviroEngr]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aenea', 'T')his is a nice discussion thread going here with immunics.
<snip>
Thank you for having this discussion in a more unbiased forum. I would like to continue to explore immunics with people that are in a more neutal atmosphere like this.

Aenea

[Mme_TooToo]

"immunics" Report III

Hi, Everyone-

Sure wish I could honestly say that I have better news for you in my third "immunics" report.

But in all honesty -- I don't.

As the duration of my visit with them lengthened, so did the undeniable evidence pile up, higher and higher, that this is a group with which to _avoid_ over-intimate association.

Unless you wish to make an especial study of an emergent, homemade religion*. Because that is exactly what the "immuners" are aiming to produce -- by their own declaration. If you search their site, note the references to "God", and relation to same, and know that this _is_ Reality to them for themselves -- and for us all. Period.

To actually derive any real benefits inherent in "immuning", I conclude now that one is best advised to:

• read Aenea's superb, realistic, totally apt commentary (could not have said it all better; wow!!),
• research and apply the _valid_ modalities from which the "immuners" built their program (but subtract the dogma), and then
• go ahead and benefit richly, free of the counterproductive complications

I personally invited the "immuners" repeatedly and respectfully to display ecumenical tolerance, adequate critical thinking skills, and fair consideration of all critical data available; no dice-ola.

In respect for spiritual practices, including the "immuners'", I continue to fully support the right of all to practice in whatever manner seems attractive and necessary to them. I recognize that they, as do we all, have every right to pursue their notion of the world, "God", and everything else exactly as they see fit.

Barring, of course, any practices that impinge upon the rights of others (now, ain't that the opening to a fertile debate?? and that's another subject...).

My objections are sheerly to the manipulative, hurtful and unconscious practices in which this group tends to engage, and to promote, outlined in my previous commentary, and so lucidly further described in Aenea's account.

I unconditionally accept all of the people involved in this group; the "immuners" themselves. I wish them all every true happiness.

Many of these "immuners" have remained sincerely friendly towards me, even after it began to be obvious that I had either "strayed", or (as is the actual case) was not and never am going to join them in their particular sort of theism. To these folks I remain always grateful for their genuine kindness and commendable generosity.

To those perhaps not so sincerely friendly, who are mostly attempting merely to "help one who doesn't know (she) needs help" (i.e., trying to fulfil religious mandate), I say-- please, do us both a favor and give it a rest. I suspect they will, as they are advised by their leaders not to waste time on the recalcitrant (I qualify). To these I remain vigorously grateful for the excellent, perspective-enlarging challenge they provide. And for the mirror they furnish to my remaining unconscious bigotry. We learn well from those with whom we (reasonably or unreasonably) disagree.

Sooo...it's back to the ol' Drawing Board for me. As some of the practices I picked up during my meteorically brief sojourn with the "immuners"
actually obtain, I intend to carry on with those for as long as they continue to prove wholesomely effective. Along with all the other proven wellness-enhancing practices I continue to do.

I hope to produce some really in-depth, point-by-point analyses of promising-looking modalities in further reports, right here at PeakOil.

We sure could use all the effective, cheap and readily available healing practices we can get our hands on -- fast. So stay tuned, folks; the fun's just begun.

Any misrepresentations are entirely the responsibility of this author, who continues to always recommend that in this, as in all circumstances -- use your own perceptions, make your own observations and make up your own mind for yourself!

Your friendly neighborhood informal reporter,

Mme TooToo



* Note: I have deliberately avoided using the term "cult", although by even a moderate definition "immunics" would qualify, because that c-word is so often used in careless and self-righteous disrespect for the persons in the group being described as a "cult".

[CCrane]

Hi, Friends,
I am new to this forum and so, hope that I do not violate standing etiquette on how to post. Having said that:

I have been doing immunics throughout the day for about 2 1/2 years. Given your discussion I thought you'd like to hear about my experience.

In that time I never gave immunics.org one penny and I received a great debt of benefit from them, so fear not. They are legitimately not motivated by money.

When I started I was partially recovered from a severe case of CFIDS which was possibly Lyme disease (hard to diagnose that one). How severe? For years, I frequently used a wheelchair outside of the house; I usually spent 18 hours a day in bed, or more; my cognitive impairment was such that often I could not count to 7, distinguish the words on a page from the page itself, remember where I was in my own home or how, for example, to get to my living room from my bedroom. I used heparin for severe hypercoagulation, made no growth hormone of my own, on a good day had a blood pressure of 90/60. I could go on.

A great doctor did what he could for me over a number of years. By the time I started Immunics I had exhausted what he had to offer (no pun intended). At that time I probably spent more like 14 hours a day in bed and could function reasonably normally as long as I experienced no stress at all . . . for me stress would have been something like standing up for more than 10 minutes or going to an exciting movie. I could walk a quarter mile or so if I rested for an hour afterwards. If I was prepared to sacrifice a week or two in recovery, I could, for example, spend a day sightseeing.

OK, sorry for the lecture. Now, immunics.

While I am not a trained scientist, my mother was and my siblings are. I know what science is about. But I have had a few experiences in my life which seemed miraculous and I really had nothing to lose by giving immunics a thorough try. By things which seem miraculous, I mean, for example, that I knew that my dog would die by hanging 12 years before it happened. That's a strange intuition to have haunt you. You can imagine my horror when it came true. On the other hand, it could have been coincidence.

Also, there is clearly the possibility that immunics does no more than settle the stress response in the body, which alone would lead to healing. No question it does that. But when I started I was too sick to meditate. I was not too sick to do this.

Perhaps it also works by suggesting to the body what health looks like.

It does that, but so do a lot of other techniques such as neurofeedback and visualization which I also tried and which had no or little effect on my health.

Now, because of my scientific bent, I am only willing to say that what happened to me seems to be true. I know that not everything that seems to be true is. In that way I differ from many immuners who assume that if something seems to be true it is. I value my skepticism.

What was my experience?

Immunics claims to call upon powers outside of the self to heal and enlists them with the self to determine a healing path. In other words, you can both effect your body directly and also access information about modalities to use as well. I have to say, with great reservation, that that is what seems to happen.

For example, with immunics I cured chronic heartburn by only eating what my "accessing" told me to eat. Instantly . . . as in, the moment I changed my eating in this way, my heartburn disappeared. Most of my testing I do blind. In other words, I do things like test the tops of bottles of supplements, or test which shelf in the pantry I need to eat from, and which box from the left.

Most of the immunics I do throughout the day simply calms me, but I frequently have dramatic insights and intuitions as well. After doing immunics on a pet snake which had not eaten for 9 months, he ate only hours later. Coincidence? There's no way of knowing, is there?

A couple of times I had an amazing sensation of illness leaving me. These sensations always happen with astounding specificity. For example, after weeks of "removing" the typical CFIDS viruses: CMV, EBV, HHV6, etc., I suddenly remembered stealth virus. As soon as I thought of it I felt as though it simply passed through me and in a wave dissipated in the air above me, and I achieved in an instant a level of improved health that I still enjoy 2 years later.

My health is not perfect. I am back at work, though I work at home. My blood pressure is normal. As far as I know I am not hypercoagulated. I haven't paid for the test, but if I cut myself my blood is now a normal color whereas it used to be black and thick. I sleep a normal 7 or 8 hours a day. I can spend the day out of the house without too much fatigue following. I am still sensitive to stress . . . my doctor feels my HPA axis is damaged . . . but I use immunics to cope with stress as well as I can. My aerobic metabolism still does not function. Most or all of my cognitive function has returned. All this after 15 years of an illness which virtually no one recovers from.

Also, my intuition has grown very keen. When a family member is having back pain, for example, I can usually know just where the pain is and which muscles to massage before I even touch them. I have no training in this area.

I have gotten rid of colds in an hour or less, hives in the same amount of time, the flu overnight (went to bed with 102 fever, woke up fine).

I am not saying that what seemed to happen did happen. I am saying that I have more or less cured myself of CFIDS and a bunch of little things too, one way or another. I would guess that my experiences are similar to those of spiritual adepts if they chose to direct their efforts at healing. They certainly feel spiritual, both in the daily dedication required and in the occasional dramatic moment which appears to be the fruit of daily discipline.

Self-healing is a worthy topic for scientific investigation, especially given the shortcomings of the current medical research establishment. Immunics is free, which is more than you can say for most alternative therapies.

However, to judge it without experiencing what "accessing" feels like and does is like judging yoga by watching a class through a glass window.

For the sake of full disclosure I will tell you that I did immunics on my own from the website for about the first year. Then, for about a year I helped them in various ways: as a moderator; as a sounding board and friend to the leader, Bayard; as a teacher on the Cure Show. I am no longer involved with them or in contact with them in any way for two reasons: Bayard and I disagree about how to teach immunics, and also, because I find in his teaching not cult behaviors but orthodoxies that I disagree with.

I believe firmly that the explanation of our healing powers is not yet discovered and that anyone with any set of beliefs can do what I did and more. I hope that more and more people will give it a whirl . . . I'm sure as this happens "immunics" will look less and less like an odd website generated by one bald guy and will look more and more like an innate human potential such as language. But it will take a lot of adventuresome souls to explore it.

There's no reason you can't take what you want from immunics and leave the rest.

I hope what I have to say is of help in thinking about self-healing. I apologize if this post is too long. I offer my story as information, for what it's worth.

Thank you,
CCRane

[Aenea]

See, it's incredibly easy to blow off something like immunics.

As I see it, the fuel that runs the efficacy of the modality is subjective, is unmeasurable ; it is a hook-up with another energy besides one's mental processes. Now defining what the hook up is connected to, well this is where the scientific reproducible data gets on it's slippery slope. And it's not just the lack of scientific data, it is also the teachers & the believers that get on their own slippery slope making it a religion.

Immunics is not about just holding out your hand and saying things and getting a body twitch. The "thing" behind it, that makes a shift in health, in stress, etc. is connecting with that energy source- to the point where it is palpable to the practitioner. This is the crux of the whole thing, and it is unmeasurable (well, maybe not, they are doing studies on the brains of the Dalai lama and other lamas that have had years of training in meditation, and yes folks, the brains are different).

I suppose one could say the same for an outsider view on meditation: you just sit there and breath and try not to think. O.K. yes, and then there is the actual ability to meditate as a dynamic process, which is so much more than sitting still and trying not to think.

Also to do immunics, it requires exercising a different part of the brain. This quote from an article on imaging studies of the brain that illuminates competition between brain systems in learning: "The medial temporal lobe of the brain, which includes a structure called the hippocampus, has been associated with what is called declarative learning, the learning of facts and events. An area called the basal ganglia, deep within the brain, has been associated with nondeclarative learning, learning based on experience that may not involve conscious memory." ( http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 112601.php )

So if one is use to studying physical systems using the MTL of the brain, and to study a non-physical system requires using basal ganglia,
but you are still using the MTL, well it may be like two ships passing each other in the night. I think The MTL is the incredible hulk going thru the linear world consuming vast amounts of data, while the basal ganglia is the little wimp standing in the corner because it is so underused and underdeveloped in our frontal lobe modern world.

I've had friends that haved lived in 3rd world countries like India, and they come back to America and say how our world forces one to live in a very imbalanced mental state. Just going to a modern grocery store forces one to make choices on 20 different cereals. All day long, constant chosing between this and that, bench pressing that MLT!

Also one good thing about the immunics group is that 'they' say don't quit your day job! Work with your doctor, don't get off your chemotherapy, etc. It's not a system that recommends throwing away your crutches, because you are now saved.

Personally, I have come to see that taking responsibility for one's health requires seeking out uncharted territory (for some it may be uncharted). Body/mind/spirit, the whole shabang needs to be treated.
And in the field of accessing the non-physical component of our health- unfortunately there seems to be a glut of guru type personalities that bloom in this arena. There are so few teachers that are not invested in some unconscious personal glory and/or mission to save the world that they are acting out. So, many of us still are on the hunt to find a 'clean' system.

Immunics could be a clean system, but Bayard keeps overlaying his attachment to it being about 'god' which he calls a Her (thank you very much!), and calling it a religion. Another great possiblity shot down. Why not leave the field wide open and let people access what they feel is a higher power without giving it a name. Perhaps that is the success of Alcoholics Annonymous- they realize the need to connect to a power greater, but they leave that part up to the individual. They have their basic guidelines, and they help each other reduplicate the process of staying sober.

Where is the exploration without the organization having to stray into
one person overlaying their whole trip on the group, or wanting so badly for this system to be the end all be all for healing and so therefore not being objective enough to make the system work better. And then Bayard flipflops into saying that he is not a founder, that all the immuners are founders, but with the next breath says: I’ll tell you why this is a religion. You can’t have it both ways Bayard.

There is scientific evidence with some of the immuners, but it was not compiled and listed on the site, because it's too busy being a religion.

Aenea

[Mme_TooToo]

Hello All-

Aenea, and CCrane, _thank you_ both for your actively helpful and sane discourse. I am finding your references to your direct experiences with "immunics" extremely useful and directly actionable. This positivley impacts me personally, and gives me hope for the development of strategies that could benefit many others as well.

Looking back to the moderator's original request for authentic research and well considered comments, it is obvious that you are respecting and following his guidelines. This is exactly what we _need_; conceptually of course, and (some of us with more immediate cause) literally, physically.

I strongly encourage all posters to please abide by the moderator's proposed guidelines, so that we can continue to get on with the practical business at hand: serious, honest, direct examination of "immunics".

Those who know whereof they speak are assisting this inititaive to go forward. Those who only more or less theoretically kibbitz (adding very clever but far off-the-point jibes) obviously do not know, as in making pertinent, direct observations, and also as in actually having entered into the experience of the protocol in question, directly.

Frankly, having myself long been (F.Y.I., fully medically certified as "real", not merely "psychosomatically"). seriously ill, I can as necessary and appropriate offer several instances of evidence -- including medical records, if that would actually be intelligently received with some respect -- exactly _where_ and _how_ various modalities (mainstream-aprroved and otherwise) have remediated, injured or proven mostly neutral.

This may not at all matter to out-of-hand detractors to any approach they neither know or understand, but I can _guanantee_ it matters immensely to the person needing actual medical intervention.


Regarding the infamous "placebo effect", which sorry to say, so many breezily trot out so often without at all first (or ever) seriously looking into either actual scientific or anecdotal data pertaining thereto; it is a medical modality all of its own with which to reckon. Many doctors could honestly tell you that it's one of their best healing allies; and they can say this without trivializing either the placebo effect itself or the patients who are fortunate and gifted enough to enjoy good access to this faculty of their immune systems.

"Immunics" very likely does include some "placebo effect", as well as the many other psychoneuroimmunological factors that, added together, comprise its notable efficacy.

The question remains: how extensively is this protocol effective? We would seem to have some evidence for that, plus an obvious need to continue experimenting and collecting data (lab mediated and anecdotal).

I find this very exciting. I invite all who care to continue in sincere and intelligent exploration of this fascinating territority to please post as often as you can and care to here. I benefit directly from your data and commentary. And I have to imagine that many others can and will, too. Please lets continue.

I also propose that those with a continued interest in working together experientially consider forming another means to explore "immunics"-related practices. As I am still so new to recommend procedure related to indiviual posters contacting one another in order to meet outside the direct context of this website, I solicit direction from this topic's moderator. Thank you.


Again, I thank and bless all the original "immuners" for devotedly working to develop and bring this interesting melange of healing practices to the fore. Would that the egotism and religious sidetracking could be thoroughly sorted out, leaving a body of procedures that scores of people everywhere could then explore, in order to discover whether "immuning" could be useful to them, too.


-MMe TooToo

[EnviroEngr]

The Casual Observations thread is here:
http://www.peakoil.com/post79259.html#79259

[Aenea]

I know this is off the subject, but how do you get these ticons to be on one's email? Thanks Aenea

[EnviroEngr]

I'm a little short on information to follow what you're after. By icon, you might mean Avatar and by email, you might mean Posting.

If so, I can walk you through it. Otherwise we need to do something different.

Then I'll move these few posts to the Technical Support forum.

[samidha]

I am relieved to find discussion of immunics that's outside of the main site.

I found the site 2 or 3 months ago and joined some lists and whatnot... I could feel SOMETHING from it but wasn't able to "test" properly. Soon after I joined, Bayard posted this really dogmatic, ranty thing about the power of Jesus Christ (!), and I just... Ugh. I mean, I don't have anything against Jesus but if they're going to say it's compatible with whatever spirituality you already have (which, despite their organization being a "church," they do say several times on the site), then I would appreciate the lack of preachy, nutty stuff.... I mean, it was a thousand words or something on how everyone should accept Jesus. It REALLY pissed me off.

Regardless, just a few days ago I decided to test out what I'd learned briefly on their website again and this time I was clearly testing.

So I went back. And lo and behold but I did find an audio file of Bayard saying he doesn't prostheletize. *smirk* So I still have extremely mixed feelings about the people, but what I've tried so far HAS WORKED. Just in two days, I feel lighter and more grounded. So I'd really like to start practicing immunics with others, but I don't want them to have to deal with the weirdness that is the core group of people. Which is really unfortunate, because whatever it is doing, it does work and I have no doubts that with experience it could really come to have drastic effects.

Would people here be interested in creation of an offshoot yahoo group or something along those lines?

[pilferage]

The concept of positive emotions increasing longevity is documented.
http://www.psych.utah.edu/2005_spring_3 ... nStudy.pdf
It's not a large leap to posit that by 'thinking' you're going to cure yourself, you actually contribute to curing yourself.

[threadbear]

Enviro, I'll check it out.

It's a popular idea that all illnesses are negative and should be eliminated. Some illnesses are a challenge to be overcome but maybe others are instructive in an entirely different way. Perhaps they are to be endured and part of that endurance is to understand their greater role in the life of the person suffering and for those within their sphere of influence.

I got CFIDs 25 years ago, and my ability to incorporate completely new data was massively affected . My short term memory and spatial perception were pretty much destroyed. But my intution is 10 times what it was prior to getting sick. And, honest to God, some days I swear I feel the earth's pain. Should this be cured? Is it somehow intentioned, part of the earth's Gaiian reflex? Are other illnesses playing a similar role? ADD, mild schizophrenia, to name just a couple?

.

[EnviroEngr]

threadbear,

You present with interesting physical conditions. So, I'd be most interested in hearing what you have to say about negotiating what you know of your inner 'karma' -with- your 'power to be' in this world. Going in the direction of an anomaly in health takes you into one kind of space, going against it takes you somewhere completely different. It comes right down to sheer gut instinct to know whether to fight it or surrender to it. Just how do we know how to pick our path?

So you're aware, I'm at the stage of reverse-engineering the Immunics techniques. There is one sutra practice, one tantra practice, a nyingma meditation, a yoga of kundalini, a dzogchen yoga, an Emotional Freedom Technique (tapping), network chiropractic, homeopathy, Process Oriented Psych., and 2 martial arts practices to rethread their methods into. All I need to do is find out which frequency they are on, tune it in and learn how it does what it does. Then, I can blend it. I hope to achieve an eclectic process in the end -- every fragment is a part of the Whole.

Also, I'm getting lots of 'prompting' to restart the Phowa practice. So much so, I might construct a thread here to introduce it. It seems time runs short. Those who could benefit ought to at least be given the chance to know about it.