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"I will defend to the death...

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Would you defend to the death an opinion that is not based in science?

yes
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no
25
No votes
only my opinion counts
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Total votes : 40

Re: "I will defend to the death...

Unread postby eastbay » Wed 19 Dec 2007, 21:11:31

To MY death? How stupid is that, anyhow?

I might more easily consider defending someone's right to say something not based on science to the death of the one who wants to shut that someone up.
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Re: "I will defend to the death...

Unread postby threadbear » Wed 19 Dec 2007, 21:48:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Good God. Science is highly politicized. Try getting funding to do a long term, in depth study of the ufo phenomenon.


You don't seem to get my point.

UFO studies fall outside of the subject of established science ... think before you talk. :)

Btu


That is just flat out funny. Do you understand what you are saying? You are basically stating that ufo's are "taboo" therefore dispicable, therefore science doesn't study them, because an opinion has been formed about them BEFORE they are studied. :lol:

In other words, I've used basic human reason, to outline one of the limits of the scientist, if not, science itself.
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Re: "I will defend to the death...

Unread postby kadoomsoon » Thu 20 Dec 2007, 03:47:28

They aren't studied, because the gov is already funding the psy-ops section that produces them, and they need the money more.
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Re: "I will defend to the death...

Unread postby btu2012 » Thu 20 Dec 2007, 10:18:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')hat is just flat out funny. Do you understand what you are saying? You are basically stating that ufo's are "taboo" therefore dispicable, therefore science doesn't study them, because an opinion has been formed about them BEFORE they are studied. :lol:

In other words, I've used basic human reason, to outline one of the limits of the scientist, if not, science itself.


I have stated nothing of the sort (about "taboos", "despicable" and other charged words). That's something which you attribute to me, apparently based on assumptions about how academic science works, or perhaps based on some issue with authority. :)

UFO studies constitute a protoscience and not a science, because the UFO researchers have not yet organized themselves as a scientific group (at the least, this would require peer-reviewed journals etc). It is up to them to do so on their own, as other sciences have done historically. It is disingenuous of them to blame lack of funding for their unwillingness or inability to follow basic scientific practice. Starting an on-line journal nowadays is not that expensive.

If and when they organize themselves as a science, then they will be recognized as such and will be funded (not necessarily from government sources). There are private sources of funding that could be interested in the subject.

Notice that my remarks have no bearing on any hypothesis regarding the nature of the "UFO phenomenon": whether it concerns psychology, folklore, mythology, aliens or any of the other hypotheses currently considered in that subject.

Anyway, it seems quite a stretch to compare global warming or oil formation theories with UFO studies. And, you seem to overestimate the power of your argument :)

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Re: "I will defend to the death...

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 20 Dec 2007, 11:37:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')hat is just flat out funny. Do you understand what you are saying? You are basically stating that ufo's are "taboo" therefore dispicable, therefore science doesn't study them, because an opinion has been formed about them BEFORE they are studied. :lol:

In other words, I've used basic human reason, to outline one of the limits of the scientist, if not, science itself.


I have stated nothing of the sort (about "taboos", "despicable" and other charged words). That's something which you attribute to me, apparently based on assumptions about how academic science works, or perhaps based on some issue with authority. :)

UFO studies constitute a protoscience and not a science, because the UFO researchers have not yet organized themselves as a scientific group (at the least, this would require peer-reviewed journals etc). It is up to them to do so on their own, as other sciences have done historically. It is disingenuous of them to blame lack of funding for their unwillingness or inability to follow basic scientific practice. Starting an on-line journal nowadays is not that expensive.

If and when they organize themselves as a science, then they will be recognized as such and will be funded (not necessarily from government sources). There are private sources of funding that could be interested in the subject.

Notice that my remarks have no bearing on any hypothesis regarding the nature of the "UFO phenomenon": whether it concerns psychology, folklore, mythology, aliens or any of the other hypotheses currently considered in that subject.

Anyway, it seems quite a stretch to compare global warming or oil formation theories with UFO studies. And, you seem to overestimate the power of your argument :)

Btu


What a pile of blather. The Journal of Scientific Exploration does just that. The subject of ufo's is highly political, and, in fact, is likely considered a national security issue, so there is an active policy to debunk it publicly, and you can bet this affects funding, on a private granting level, as well.
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Re: "I will defend to the death...

Unread postby btu2012 » Thu 20 Dec 2007, 14:20:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')hat a pile of blather. The Journal of Scientific Exploration does just that. The subject of ufo's is highly political, and, in fact, is likely considered a national security issue, so there is an active policy to debunk it publicly, and you can bet this affects funding, on a private granting level, as well.


For a moment there I thought that you were talking about UFO studies rather than about generic study of anomalies (which is what the SSE is concerned with).

UFO studies are indeed politicized (rather than intrinsically political) and also badly served by lots of quacks, impostors, new age people, and mystics of various kinds -- most of whom seem to reside within the USA. Though there are some serious people involved as well. There's probably some disinformation at work also, again mostly in the US and Britain. Interestingly the situation in that regard is much better in other countries.

None of the above affects my point that the field of UFO studies did not yet succeed to organize itself into a science (whatever excuses one might have for that fact). Minimal scientific standards include the requirement to properly delimit the subject of such research rather than to conveniently equate it with the much wider subject of anomaly studies. Ufology will not be taken seriously until its activities consistently and systematically satisfy the minimal requirements of a scientific community. Until such time, it will remain a protoscience and thus unlikely to be seriously funded.

But you seem to be in the habit of attributing to me stuff which I didn't say, apparently as an excuse for using colorful language. You are welcome to do that anytime. :)

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Re: "I will defend to the death...

Unread postby btu2012 » Fri 21 Dec 2007, 09:53:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'E')specially if you are anything of a student of quantum mechanics (for any quantum fans out there, yes, I know there is no such construct but I use the term anyway becuase it is recognizable concept, yet another arguement without fact).

And yet that is where our science and our realities are going (quantum physics) and there is very little fact there. In fact the basis we use to argue the quantum reality would not be explainable without some base assumptions that we were willing to accept as "fact".


As a physicist I beg to disagree. Quantum mechanics is as factual and scientific as any other theory in Physics. It is less accessible to the layman than Newtonian mechanics, but it is as well-established and understood as the later. So are special and general relativity and other theories which laymen tend to view as "obscure" or "mysterious".

Current research in Theoretical Physics does not concern quantum mechanics (which was well-established already in the 1930s) but things such as condensed matter, astrophysics, cosmology or high energy physics. Physicists spend very little time worrying about quantum mechanics (which they view as well-established, boring, undergraduate-level stuff).

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Re: "I will defend to the death...

Unread postby hubbertspeak7777777 » Fri 21 Dec 2007, 18:14:26

There's only one thing I'd defend to the death... my own life.

PS I voted that only my opinion matters.
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