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How about energy co-ops?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

How about energy co-ops?

Unread postby Colorado-Valley » Tue 12 Sep 2006, 01:59:41

I've been fumbling around with the idea of co-ops. I'm concerned that energy supplies are now monopolized by large companies with strong, crony-style ties to government.

I'm afraid they will create "bottlenecks" that will keep energy prices so high that all of our discretionary income will be eaten up just trying to survive. And of course they will make huge profits in doing so.

At the turn of the century, populist farmers being taken to the cleaners by railroads and grain trusts started forming cooperatives, so that they could buy in bulk and also sell products direct to consumers without going through a monopolistic middle man.

That was called the "progressive movement," and it was able to help keep farmers from being put completely at the mercy of the robber barons of the age.

I wonder if there is any way that energy cooperatives with purchasing power could be organized to compete with the big energy companies. Maybe they would even spark innovation and efficiency for those who understand the danger of being powerless in an age in which power is everything.

My electric utility is a nonprofit rural electric co-op owned by us, the customers. It was formed as part of Roosevelt's New Deal. Our co-op raised our rates 5 percent last winter. A nearby private-owned utility raised theirs 37 percent.

Our co-op spends a lot of money helping customers save electricity so the co-op doesn't have to buy expensive peak power. It actually tries to help us customer-owners save energy, which is pretty amazing if you think about it.

So what do you think? Is there a place for co-ops in a peak-energy future?


:)
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Re: How about energy co-ops?

Unread postby MrBill » Tue 12 Sep 2006, 02:50:16

Sure, Co-ops have a long, illustrious history in rural areas. In the town I am from we have a grain co-op, lumber co-op, grocery co-op and of course a bulk fuel co-op as well as a caisse populare or credit union. They can be good, so long as they are not too small and therefore too inefficient with high fixed costs in the form of sales & admin costs that dilute savings that could be passed along to their members.

Also, good management is key. Small co-ops can have problems to attract the best people, so they may lack the expertise to wring more efficiencies out of the system than say their private counterparts. And of course in small organizations that are poorly run or badly monitored theft and fraud is also a worry for shareholders.

I have seen a lot of institutional paralysis when powerful interests in local organizations collide. It is hard to find best practice being implemented in these small organizations sometimes. Like closing down the local post office to save money. That is someone's job and you know them and their family. Still if they are loss making and no one is willing to spend a lot more to support the post office eventually it has to go.

In the short run you can cut costs and pass the savings onto your customers, but if your stakeholders do not let you invest properly in infrastructure, to keep costs down, then you will quickly find your infrastructure out of date, inefficient, and in need of repairs.

Co-ops have their advantages and disadvantages. Consumers are usually best served by having competition not replacing one monopolist supplier with another.
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Re: How about energy co-ops?

Unread postby gg3 » Tue 12 Sep 2006, 03:21:24

Mr. Bill basically has it on target.

I would add:

Competition is good in areas where it is possible, but it may not be possible, or better, in the case of energy suppiles in rural areas (or even in some urban areas). Remember, competing firms must spend more overhead $$ on sales and marketing. And investor-owned corporations also have an enormous regulatory burden to comply with, e.g. SEC rules, which is not the case with smaller privately-held corporations, co-operatives, and suchlike.

The major advantage of co-ops is direct grassroots ownership, whether employee-ownership or consumer-ownership. But yes you do have to attract good management and all the rest of it.
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Re: How about energy co-ops?

Unread postby garyp » Tue 12 Sep 2006, 06:50:34

Worth reading parts of this interview.
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Re: How about energy co-ops?

Unread postby MrBill » Tue 12 Sep 2006, 08:34:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('garyp', 'W')orth reading parts of this interview.


Thanks. A great read! Puts the IOB to bed and destroys many of the arguments that have been laid out on these pages in the past year. Nice to see that the source is the very man who designed the system in the first place! ; - )
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')“What we are looking at is a political problem: all that has been done is a building has been bought, a legal entity has been put together, but all the nuts and bolts, the elements of an exchange, essentially there is nothing behind it at all which is worthy of the name of an exchange.”


MrBill: My point all along! Thank you very much.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')“If I can go back to the beginning, in June 2001, when we wrote to the Governor of the Central Bank of Iran, pointing out that the market was being routinely manipulated by intermediaries, such as investment banks and oil traders, and this had an adverse effect on producers and consumers, particularly on countries like Iran -the big producers.”

MrBill: Naturally he does not say how? Also neglects to say that OPEC selling price is fixed by OPEC based on an OPEC basket. Prices can vary. One price to Asia, one price to Europe, one price to USA for example. And they are not at a fixed spread to either Brent or to WTI benchmark contracts, but generally track them in a band of prices. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')
“Unfortunately this new management is taking the less transparent option. Certainly ignoring everything we have said. They are in line with Oil Ministry orthodoxy. We thought that's as far as we can go here. So we appealed in writing to the President Ahmadinejad to put the project back on track, because at the moment it is being driven into the sidings.
All we're looking at is a new sales office for the Iranian National Oil Corporation and it will lack any sort of credibility as a result.
It might have a minute domestic application, it will have no international credibility at all... and it's not intended to.”


MrBill: No [s]fucking[/s] wonder! Transparency is the cornerstone of international credibility. Again what I said all along.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')“Yes, the logic of the internet is to cut out unneccessary intermediaries - disintermediation - and to connect the ultimate buyer and the ultimate seller more directly. At the moment the middlemen own the market, and set the rules to suit themselves. Profits are far higher by the middlemen than they need to be. They are making super-profits because of the way the market is. I don't begrudge intermediaries a return on capital, but I do begrudge them a ridiculous return on capital, particularly when they are using unfair or inequitable ways of trading, abuse of market information, that sort of thing, which is definitely what goes on now.”


MrBill: This is where I definitely do not agree! Oil markets are not like Napster. It costs you virtually nothing to share your music on Napster, and you still have your music to use for yourself after you share it. That is completely different than a commodity like oil, which unlike gold, is consumed to create energy!!

Futures markets were set-up in the first place to allow intermediation between producer and final consumer to smooth out prices and bring buyer and seller together through a series of intermediaries who had different views on prices.

If I may use the case of natural gas pipeline between Iran and India and Pakistan you have your disintermediation exactly. Iran sells natural gas directly to India and Pakistan via a pipeline. However, Iran wants $7 per mmbtu versus India and Pakistan who want to pay less than a third of that. Also, Iran wants to link the price to the price of crude. Normally, natural gas trades off of coal spreads. The so called sparks and darks spreads for electricity generation. As natural gas is typically used not as a transport fuel, but as a stationary fuel.

So whereas futures markets bring buyers and sellers together even though they have different ideas about price through intermediaries who are speculators, disintermediation has none of these advantages. He should know better as the IPE have so-called market counterparts for trading electricity and emissions, and only so-called market counterparts can participate in these futures markets, unlike crude futures where non-market counterparts can also participate.

But let us say, he is now a consultant, and it is a consultant’s job to sell new ideas and solutions to new customers. They do not do it out of ideology.
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